obedience/cow breaking advice

Toad

Toad

Active member
Looking for advice on which way to proceed. I don't have much experience training pointing breed dogs so any advice is much appreciated. (I have a little more retriever training experience, and a lot more house dog training experience)

(Short question is, "when can I start enforcing the "come" command with a 5 month old brittany?")

Long version-

About a month ago I got a 4 month old brittany female. Since I got her I've house trained her and conditioned her to sleeping in a crate, but that has been the extent of her training so far. We go for walks daily on a check-cord around the neighborhood, and also on check-cord at WIHAs and public land. At this point, she does NOT come when called unless it suits her or she is on a check cord. At the advice of the books I've read and videos I've watched, I have not worked on any formal obedience training up to this point.

Recently (just this last week) I have been taking her off the check-cord on our walks at the WIHA and public land. I'm hoping she'll get some extra exercise that way, stop tangling and choking herself, and also maybe luck into some birds. She checks in naturally every few mintues and follows my changes in direction, and up to this point has only ranged to about 100 yards. I'm really happy about her being naturally cooperative and wanting to stay (generally) with me while still hunting and exploring.

My problem is that on our last outing, she took off after some cows and I wasn't able to call her off of them. She ran to within about 50 yards of them and stopped and barked. So I turned and walked directly away from the cows whistling and calling her. Eventually she realized that I was walking away and ran to catch up with me. Once she reached me, she started barking and took off towards them again. After a minute of me whistling and cussing while walking away, she eventually lost interest in them and ran back to catch up with me. Then she stopped, reared up, and was about to run at them for the third time! Fortunately, I was quick enough to jump in front of her and grab her collar. I firmly said, "NO", and held her there. She reared up, barked, and tried to run towards them and I repeated, "NO" and popped her on her rear with the nylon end (not the snap end) of her leash and then cast her off in the opposite direction of the cows.

After that, she went back to running and sniffing and didn't go for them again. We continued our happy-time run until it was time to load up and go. She ran away from the truck and I could only get her to come to me by going back out into the field, and snapping her leash on out in the field. She absolutely would NOT come to the truck on her own.

I guess I'm not quite sure where to go from this point...

Do I:
1. Start formal obedience training on "come"?
2. Postpone formal obedience training on those commands but work on "cow-breaking" her?
3. Stop free-running her and go back to the check-cord runs exclusively?
4. Only run her where there are no cows around?
5. Something else I haven't thought of?

My fear is that unless she is respects and understands the come command totally, she willl follow her nose right into big trouble (road, momma cow, horse, etc,.) The "happy conditioning" of the come command only works when she is in the mood to come. I feel like I either need to train and enforce the command or go back to the check cord.

My preference would be to formally train and be able to enforce the come command. But I also don't want to screw her up if she is too young. She seems to have a lot of potential as a bird dog. Any thoughts?:eek:
 
Toad said:
I guess I'm not quite sure where to go from this point...

Do I:
1. Start formal obedience training on "come"? What do you consider "formal"? It certainly can't hurt to work on recall as long as you aren't jerkin' her around all the time. I personally feel she's a bit young to strap a collar on her. Others might say otherwise.
2. Postpone formal obedience training on those commands but work on "cow-breaking" her?
3. Stop free-running her and go back to the check-cord runs exclusively? I free ran Sis from the day I got her. And yes, there were times I would have to "catch" her, and there were times I would absolutely be infuriated. But you can't lose your temper. Praise em up when they come back. Now, she recalls and handles well for as big as she goes.
4. Only run her where there are no cows around?
5. Something else I haven't thought of?
Click to expand...

I run my dogs on a couple hundred acres that are occupied by probably 30-40 head of cattle. My guys CANNOT chase cattle, not for the fact that I'm scared for their safety (They can get out of the way of the cattle) but for the fact that landowners don't care for cattle chasin' dogs and I love that place and don't want to get kicked off.
So, I can't remember when I broke Sis of chasin' cattle, but it was pretty quick, and she mighta been fairly young.

I guess the point of it all is to keep working on recall. The cattle thing, she wouldn't recall because of her prey drive, and curiousity among other things. All good traits, right?
I imagine, though, eventually you will have to "cow break" her...
 
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You need a shock collar. There's lots of advice on the use of shock collars in other threads. Good luck.
 
V-John said:
I run my dogs on a couple hundred acres that are occupied by probably 30-40 head of cattle. My guys CANNOT chase cattle, not for the fact that I'm scared for their safety (They can get out of the way of the cattle) but for the fact that landowners don't care for cattle chasin' dogs and I love that place and don't want to get kicked off.
So, I can't remember when I broke Sis of chasin' cattle, but it was pretty quick, and she mighta been fairly young.

I guess the point of it all is to keep working on recall. The cattle thing, she wouldn't recall because of her prey drive, and curiousity among other things. All good traits, right?
I imagine, though, eventually you will have to "cow break" her...
Click to expand...


Thanks for the detailed reply. At this point, it's more of a safety issue than anything else. She clearly wants to be with me (as in not run away), and I have an Astro now, so I'm not worried at all about losing her. But, like you, I also don't want to burn bridges by pissing off ranchers. I also have access to some decent places that have horses and mules, and I have seen what they will do to a coyote... Before I take her anywhere near those places I would have to be confident that she would come immediately when called.

I have lost my patience plenty of times, but never my temper.;)

As far as "formal obedience", I mean adding a correction to the training. So far, I've just been conditioning her to the come command. As in, if she's already coming to me, I say "come" and praise her. It works great when she isn't distracted by something else...:eek: Instead, would start doing a drill in the yard with a check cord at first and then adding in the E-collar in the process. Probably something like come-heel-release.

With the retriever and house dog pups I would drill sit-stay-come-heel in a couple short sessions every day, but everything I have read tells me not to teach "sit" at all, and that I should wait until after her first season to formally teach her anything.

It is obvious that she has the "stuff" to be a great hunting dog. I don't want to screw her up by doing obedience training too early, but I also don't want her to get mashed by a car or a mule...
 
BritChaser said:
You need a shock collar. There's lots of advice on the use of shock collars in other threads. Good luck.
Click to expand...

I've got a fairly decent one, an older Tritronics. Do you think I should do some obedience training now, or just use it to keep her away from cows?
 
I easily broke my dog from chasing rabbits and deer with shocking. Make sure that you precede any shock with a command that the dog knows and is familiar with, and then shock only when the command is ignored.
 
Dog doesn't come...common problem with dogs that are distracted and intent on hunting.

A dog that's ranging 100 yards - difficult to control and probably doesn't hear or want to hear your command.

Perhaps reeling him in, keeping him closer might work.

And...introduce some stimulation when he doesn't come to your call!! Some dogs just don't get it and get shocked their whole life.

Good Luck.
 
jonnyB said:
Dog doesn't come...common problem with dogs that are distracted and intent on hunting.

A dog that's ranging 100 yards - difficult to control and probably doesn't hear or want to hear your command.

Perhaps reeling him in, keeping him closer might work.

And...introduce some stimulation when he doesn't come to your call!! Some dogs just don't get it and get shocked their whole life.

Good Luck.
Click to expand...

100 yards ain't much in Kansas, most places.
I don't personally think shocking the dog at five months because of not recalling is necessary.
 
It might not be necessary when talking about just a recall but for my dog's safety I will do as much shocking as it takes - i.e. near a road etc.

I think that at any age, once your dog knows what the command means, hears you say it, and disobeys, you can stim them without breaking any drive or whatever. Bottom line, you are the Alpha and in charge no matter what she wants to do.

I never stim when we are hunting , as to not break the love/drive, but in any other situation, I believe you can't just let her disobey or she will learn she doesn't have to listen.

I use vibrate on the collar for recall which seems to work because it breaks their concentration on whatever they're doing and reminds them to listen "or else"

Chuck
 
she's pretty young-
one thing you should be proud of is that she ran up and barked-
much worse if they are brave enough to go chase

think just keeping her away from danger- open areas- let her tell you the range she's confortable with-

let her grow up a bit
 
Just my opinion...

but, in dairy farm country, a cow chasing dog is an ex-dog.

All dogs, visiting or permanent, are taken out to a pasture with 20-30 cows in it and as soon as they show an interest that is more than just idle curiosity, they find the highest, non-cruel collar rating, along with a "NO!"

And over and over again, they are brought at heel to proximity and told "no," with a ready finger on the button.

It can not happen. I am ruthless on this.

As far as ranging, depends. You have a pup. Let it be a puppy, unless it goes wandering afar. It is going to school on scents and textures.

As you demonstrated, it wants to be with you. Reinforce that, but do it gradually.

IS PUPPY.

That said, I have farm traffic around here, and when I say "come," I need that dog to come. I'm much more gentle than the cow instance, but with reward and acknowledgement, pup usually picks it up pretty quickly.


Best wishes.
 
I have to agree with Kismet post on this one.

First, I will not take a dog in the field that won't "Come on Command" or "whoa on Command". A five month old pup is capable of these two tasks that can be taught in the back yard. These are basic commands that all dogs need.

Cow chasing is a serious issue, like Kismet said. However, it can be resolved, but I think I would do reinforcement training of Come & Whoa first. Then correct the cow chasing issue at a later time.
 
Kismet

there's 40 or so cattle across the road, another 30 or so down the road 1 mile, another 30 or so 2 miles away-

there are other ways than to shock a 5 month old- most likely soft pup-

I do agree- dogs chasing cows/cattle can result in a dead dog-
 
Thanks a ton for all the responses, guys! This site is priceless!:thumbsup:

I was really hoping to hear that others were teaching some basic obedience before the dog's first season and not ruining the dog. It sounds like that is the case, so I'll proceed cautiously with some come training in the yard. I think I'll probably just focus on that mostly.

Not my intention to break her spirit, or reduce her range at all. Just keep her out of harm's way and get her into the truck after our runs.

There are lots of different types of terrain, but ranging 100 yards out here isn't much at all. I'm guessing her range will get a LOT bigger once she grows up. She's still pretty pocket-size right now, but full of HUNT.
 
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Kismet said:
Just my opinion...

but, in dairy farm country, a cow chasing dog is an ex-dog.

All dogs, visiting or permanent, are taken out to a pasture with 20-30 cows in it and as soon as they show an interest that is more than just idle curiosity, they find the highest, non-cruel collar rating, along with a "NO!"

And over and over again, they are brought at heel to proximity and told "no," with a ready finger on the button.

It can not happen. I am ruthless on this.

As far as ranging, depends. You have a pup. Let it be a puppy, unless it goes wandering afar. It is going to school on scents and textures.

As you demonstrated, it wants to be with you. Reinforce that, but do it gradually.

IS PUPPY.

That said, I have farm traffic around here, and when I say "come," I need that dog to come. I'm much more gentle than the cow instance, but with reward and acknowledgement, pup usually picks it up pretty quickly.


Best wishes.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the pointers on cow breaking. She hasn't been collar conditioned at all, so I will probably just take her out on a leash and see if I get any response from a firm "NO" when she shows interest in the cows. If that doesn't show any results after a few sessions, I can start to incorporate the e-collar.
 
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