More lead ammo shenanigans
- Thread starter ditchparrot19
- Start date
I believe the person in question is with the Fish and Wildlife Service...the feds.
If it's strictly about lead levels in condors it seems to me to be an uphill fight for prohibition. If it's about plumbism in waterfowl and through them into the scavenger and raptor populations, there's better information to back up the claims that lead is a problem.
A lot of people on this forum are too young to remember shooting razor breast Pintails and Mallards that had lead poisoning. I can't remember shooting one since the move to steel shot.
Yeah, I noticed that about it being the Feds. But I think it is interesting to watch how they behave in California as opposed to other states. The culture of the state seems to seep into how they conduct business out of the California offices. At least that has been my observation.
Years ago when this was being debated, I was thinking that it would be a great PR coup to have the hunter's voluntarily and proactively pull back on lead and just make the jump to other alternatives. But there is a always a group of hunters that wants to fight just for the sake of fighting and keep things the way they were. In California, I can't blame them - they have been constantly pushed into a corner, particularly by the HSUS and Senator Lieu.
Banning lead in the wetlands has always made sense to me. In the uplands, not so much, because the flora and fauna is different, as well as the volume of shooting and lack of a fixed location.
In the end it doesn't matter - the law was passed. The fact that it was done for politcal reasons, and not for sound scientific reasons annoyed me.
It didn't actually have that much of an impact on me though. I was already using steel shot to chase after pheasants on the Federal refuges and I didn't want to pass up a shot at ducks that might flush while the dog and I were pushing around the edges of the tules on the California State Wildlife Areas, so I used steel shot or some other non-toxic loads there too.
I remember reading Tom Roster's comprehensive study on shot types, sizes, ranges and pheasant morbidity in the 1990's. The conclusion was pretty striking. #2 Steel was the best at all ranges if you had to use steel and the crippling rate dropped to 3% for shots taken 30 yards and under. So I just switched to Kent Faststeel #2 and worked on judging range correctly.
There have been other loads that patterned really well for me, such Kent Tungsten Matrix, Remington Waterfowl HD and other alloys that approach the density and ballistics of lead. And since I am spending a ton of money on fuel to drive to the Grasslands and Northern Sacramento Valley for what might amount to one clean shot at a rooster, I didn't mind that the load could cost me $3 - $5 per shot. The key was the clean kill for the one rooster that might present me with a doable shot.
No the writing on the wall for lead was there a long time ago and I had ostensibly shifted to non-toxic anyway because I was always prowling around the wetlands anyway. But it still bothers me at how dishonest and opaque the process for discovery and hearings was conducted for the condor-driven ban on the use of lead ammo.
The irony is that no one will check to see the impact of the lead ban on the condors lead poisoning mortality. This is sort of like the establishment of the Marine Protection Areas in California - data was not systematically collected and analyzed for a long time prior to the establishment of the areas, nor after either. If you don't properly collect, analyze and peer review base line data, how the heck can you analyze the impact of a forced change? And if you don't collect data after the face and analyze it, how can you know if the change was effective?
Years ago when this was being debated, I was thinking that it would be a great PR coup to have the hunter's voluntarily and proactively pull back on lead and just make the jump to other alternatives. But there is a always a group of hunters that wants to fight just for the sake of fighting and keep things the way they were. In California, I can't blame them - they have been constantly pushed into a corner, particularly by the HSUS and Senator Lieu.
Banning lead in the wetlands has always made sense to me. In the uplands, not so much, because the flora and fauna is different, as well as the volume of shooting and lack of a fixed location.
In the end it doesn't matter - the law was passed. The fact that it was done for politcal reasons, and not for sound scientific reasons annoyed me.
It didn't actually have that much of an impact on me though. I was already using steel shot to chase after pheasants on the Federal refuges and I didn't want to pass up a shot at ducks that might flush while the dog and I were pushing around the edges of the tules on the California State Wildlife Areas, so I used steel shot or some other non-toxic loads there too.
I remember reading Tom Roster's comprehensive study on shot types, sizes, ranges and pheasant morbidity in the 1990's. The conclusion was pretty striking. #2 Steel was the best at all ranges if you had to use steel and the crippling rate dropped to 3% for shots taken 30 yards and under. So I just switched to Kent Faststeel #2 and worked on judging range correctly.
There have been other loads that patterned really well for me, such Kent Tungsten Matrix, Remington Waterfowl HD and other alloys that approach the density and ballistics of lead. And since I am spending a ton of money on fuel to drive to the Grasslands and Northern Sacramento Valley for what might amount to one clean shot at a rooster, I didn't mind that the load could cost me $3 - $5 per shot. The key was the clean kill for the one rooster that might present me with a doable shot.
No the writing on the wall for lead was there a long time ago and I had ostensibly shifted to non-toxic anyway because I was always prowling around the wetlands anyway. But it still bothers me at how dishonest and opaque the process for discovery and hearings was conducted for the condor-driven ban on the use of lead ammo.
The irony is that no one will check to see the impact of the lead ban on the condors lead poisoning mortality. This is sort of like the establishment of the Marine Protection Areas in California - data was not systematically collected and analyzed for a long time prior to the establishment of the areas, nor after either. If you don't properly collect, analyze and peer review base line data, how the heck can you analyze the impact of a forced change? And if you don't collect data after the face and analyze it, how can you know if the change was effective?
enzinn I think you have the right attitude about the non-toxic issue. Like you said if you only get three shots in a season who cares what it costs?
Tungsten has the potential to be more of an issue under certain circumstances because it's not as inert as may be thought.
http://www.researchgate.net/profile...ten-based_shot/links/02e7e528a7f6e1665e000000
Tungsten has the potential to be more of an issue under certain circumstances because it's not as inert as may be thought.
http://www.researchgate.net/profile...ten-based_shot/links/02e7e528a7f6e1665e000000
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quail hound
Moderator
Having to use steel and other non tox while pheasant hunting isn't a big deal, I've shot 5 shots and bagged 3 wild roosters with 28ga bismuth loads this year. Having to use non tox loads for quail hunting has me a bit tweeked. Bismuth is too expensive for me to shoot at quail (I do a lot of quail hunting) and have so far been less than impressed with smaller, 6 and 7, shot through my beloved 28ga. The switch might make me have to think seriously about a nice, light 20ga SxS.
I couldn't access the full articles, but I didn't like the look of the abstracts. I didn't know that tungsten was potentially a problem. Fortunately for me I shifted almost completely to steel when the Kent Tungsten Matrix loads started to disappear a while ago. It was definitely a game changer for me - no more sloppy shooting. I have learned to curb my range and do my level best to stare at the head of the rooster and try to get my pattern centered on that (instead of that goddamn attractive tail).
I guess I can cross tungsten off the list of possibilities.
I guess I can cross tungsten off the list of possibilities.
Quail Hound - I hear ya on steel for quail. You get a lot more opportunities for quail then for pheasant in California (or so I think - what would I know, since I haven't gone out for quail once this year). The costs can mount.
Did you have to play around with choke changes when using steel with your 28 ga? Steel definitely patterns differently than the softer lead and bismuth, at least in my 12 ga guns. The volume and powder charge also seem to affect the pattern in non-intuitive ways. I just gave up trying to guess and started buying boxes of shells and running loads through the guns with different chokes to see what patterned the best at the ranges of interest. And my old fixed choke guns, including an my ancient trusty Berretta O/U 680 choked full and modified, dont' see any high velocity steel action, since they don't pattern worth a damn with those loads.
I will say one thing about steel - it was a serious game changer for my duck hunting. In retrospect I would say it helped me to become a better duck hunter and to work the birds a lot more. I and my blind partners started to chase after the 15-yard-feet-down shots because that was more satisfying. Other people, particularly hard core refuge rats, would look at me in disbelief when I would pass up a 35 yard passing shot on a duck. Skyscrapers didn't last long in our blind.
And as I mentioned in an earlier post, once I made the switch to steel for pheasant, I held on shots that I would have snapped off when shooting lead or tungsten matrix. I can't say it is more satisfying passing up shots on pheasants, but at least I know the limits of my load and gun now.
Did you have to play around with choke changes when using steel with your 28 ga? Steel definitely patterns differently than the softer lead and bismuth, at least in my 12 ga guns. The volume and powder charge also seem to affect the pattern in non-intuitive ways. I just gave up trying to guess and started buying boxes of shells and running loads through the guns with different chokes to see what patterned the best at the ranges of interest. And my old fixed choke guns, including an my ancient trusty Berretta O/U 680 choked full and modified, dont' see any high velocity steel action, since they don't pattern worth a damn with those loads.
I will say one thing about steel - it was a serious game changer for my duck hunting. In retrospect I would say it helped me to become a better duck hunter and to work the birds a lot more. I and my blind partners started to chase after the 15-yard-feet-down shots because that was more satisfying. Other people, particularly hard core refuge rats, would look at me in disbelief when I would pass up a 35 yard passing shot on a duck. Skyscrapers didn't last long in our blind.
And as I mentioned in an earlier post, once I made the switch to steel for pheasant, I held on shots that I would have snapped off when shooting lead or tungsten matrix. I can't say it is more satisfying passing up shots on pheasants, but at least I know the limits of my load and gun now.
quail hound
Moderator
I really haven't patterned the loads through my 28ga yet. I shoot cheap, low velocity(1100fps), fiochi target loads through my cyl/ ic chokes and they're perfect for my quail hunting. On a good year like 2011/2012 I could use 6 or 7 boxes between the high Sierras in September and the Mojave in January. I'll have to pattern them but I bet the steel patterns will be tight at 15yds and have too many quail sized holes at 35yds.
You might try buying bigger volumes of shells, possibly by combining orders with people. Sometimes you get a volume discount. But if you are only shooting 6 or 7 boxes, then you might not be a good candidate for buying in bulk.
The steel patterning will likely be interesting.
How many shot sizes would you have to go up when switching from lead to steel for quail?
The steel patterning will likely be interesting.
How many shot sizes would you have to go up when switching from lead to steel for quail?
quail hound
Moderator
I've been told that steel 6's and 7's are the way to go and since steel loads only pack a 5/8th oz pay load I would think keeping shot size small is better. Thankfully I got over my "trigger happy" phase pretty quickly and limit myself to high average shots, I could probably save enough money to shoot bismuth if took my lunch to work mote often.:thumbsup:
Calisdad
New member
60 cent 20 ga and 70 cent 12 ga Golden Pheasant Fiocchi's crumple a pheasant at 35 to 40 yards very effectively. If I wanted to make hamburger with my game I'd do it in the kitchen- not in the field.
If lead concentrations cause plumbism in ducks then it's a duck issue- not an upland one. Why is the lead poisoning rate on condors steady to rising when there has been 99% compliance to a ban in their range and it's been in effect for what? 10 years?
A lie embellished with a sprinkling of truth is still a lie in my book. The people who pushed the lead ban don't give much of a shit about plumbism- they want to take our guns out of our hands. How many 22's will now sit in a safe instead of bringing squirrel to the table?
All the clubs I hunt competitively at limit shot size to #6. It's a safety issue. How will the CBD react when hunter injury rates rise?
If lead concentrations cause plumbism in ducks then it's a duck issue- not an upland one. Why is the lead poisoning rate on condors steady to rising when there has been 99% compliance to a ban in their range and it's been in effect for what? 10 years?
A lie embellished with a sprinkling of truth is still a lie in my book. The people who pushed the lead ban don't give much of a shit about plumbism- they want to take our guns out of our hands. How many 22's will now sit in a safe instead of bringing squirrel to the table?
All the clubs I hunt competitively at limit shot size to #6. It's a safety issue. How will the CBD react when hunter injury rates rise?
I attended one of Roster's clinics right before he went to ND for the steel-shot testing program. When the shooting portion was over, he invited me to help him. However, I didn't think I could put up being around him for several days in the field.....
His testing did prove you can kill birds with steel shot. BUT, from my experience, I've witnessed way more birds (pheasants/ducks/geese) crippled and not recovered from shooting steel than could possibly have died from ingesting lead shot.....Some of the expensive no-tox options are not bad (Rem version of original Hevi-Shot) but plain steel is just garbage for other than close shots IMHO.
His testing did prove you can kill birds with steel shot. BUT, from my experience, I've witnessed way more birds (pheasants/ducks/geese) crippled and not recovered from shooting steel than could possibly have died from ingesting lead shot.....Some of the expensive no-tox options are not bad (Rem version of original Hevi-Shot) but plain steel is just garbage for other than close shots IMHO.
I don't know why this box won't let me put up the links to what it finds for me. The abstract doesn't do the study justice. Although it's the author's opinion that ingested tungsten shot isn't a problem, tungsten dust and shot fragments can actually sterilize soil killing bacteria and preventing plants, like Rye Grass for example, from germinating. It was a self funded study paid for by the two authors so it didn't involve long term exposure studies. I'll try again to get a better link.
Robert, I thought you were supposed to be in SoDak? What's the sniff?
quail hound
Moderator
I'm leaving Saturday.
I haven't been following what's going on with the condors much since I don't hunt big game any more or live in their range any more either. I thought they'd taken all the birds into captivity but then I saw recently that they had released a few in the Grand Canyon. If the lead levels are going up while in captivity they need to look at their Condor Chow formula.
Personally, I hope all of them. As it is wardens set up a hunter road block on the Foresthill divide and give out all the tickets they want to write for over limits on squirrels when it opens. Those guys make quail hunting more exciting than it needs to be.
Perfect timing!!! Gas prices going through the cellar and following a storm instead of being in front of it. I've got the info for you when you get back and decompress.
I don't know if he still does it but for $20 he used to come up with reloading recipes for a component list and shot weight you'd send him. I did that for a bunch of empties I had and he sent me the recipe but not until he tried to convince me I should do something different that I didn't want to do. Strong personality.
I've got a video Roster made about how to shoot birds at long range with steel. He was shooting Honkers while hiding in cattails with another guy who had a laser range finder and a third guy with the camera. He'd call the bird he was going to shoot out of the flock and would kill it in the air with one shot. He did this about ten times with the longest shot being 73 yds. Maybe he crippled and lost birds he didn't get, I don't know but he did apologize once for a shot he made that killed the bird because it was a little far back on the bird.
My experience with steel is that I can't seem to get the same feel with it that I had with lead. I don't shoot it enough anymore to get a good groove but that said, when it's on the bird it kills them just as dead as lead and just as far.
I've only shot a couple of pheasants with steel and they got the Golden BB. I plan on doing a bunch of patterning with small shot for smaller birds although they've postponed the requirement for steel on doves and quail until after somebody will have taken my keys away anyway.
https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.ashx?DocumentID=90866&inline
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Calisdad
New member
Personally, I hope all of them. As it is wardens set up a hunter road block on the Foresthill divide and give out all the tickets they want to write for over limits on squirrels when it opens. Those guys make quail hunting more exciting than it needs to be.[/QUOTE]
You already know I agree 22 hunters are the most dangerous animals in the forest. If you give them permission to sterilize 22's what's to stop them from doing the same with your Citori?
You already know I agree 22 hunters are the most dangerous animals in the forest. If you give them permission to sterilize 22's what's to stop them from doing the same with your Citori?
Thanks for link. How did you know where to find that?
I swear by Kent Faststeel #2's for pheasants and ducks, but only in one gun with a specific choke. It patterns perfectly and the shot penetrates pheasants and doesn't get bound up by the feathers. Almost of my shots are clean kills, but part of that may be my picking high probability shots and passing up stuff that seems marginal to me with steel shot and an open choke.
I have to admit, I do use lead when hunting for pheasant, sharpies and huns in North Dakota, when I think that chances of seeing a duck or goose are nil. But I still revert back to steel or Remington HD when creeping around potholes while hunting for sharpies. Lead is just flat out more lethal, presumably due to it's density and subsequent momentum out of the barrel.