New Drain Tiling Legislation Proposed for SD

Just have to comment

I am a farmer from SD. I also hunt and have a decent pheasant population. I also consider myself an environmentalist.

First of all, tiling is EXTREMELY environmentally friendly. It is one of the most important tools we have to protect the soil and water resource. It is tragic the amount of misinformation there is on this topic. Everything Brian Hefty said in his letter is 100% correct.

With that said, if your sole purpose is to preserve pheasant habitat you would be correct in opposing additional tile installation. Some acres that can be tiled can be good pheasant habitat on wet years. Please keep in mind it is illegal to drain and tile wetlands (at least in SD).

It is obvious there is great cynicism here toward the farming community. Some may be just, but please do not generalize. Not all farmers are greedy with there sole goal to produce a profit.
 
Last edited:
Welcome to the forum Scott. With post like that you will soon be as popular as me.:cheers:
 
Tiling

Thanks Scott you beet me to it but I think we need to expand this topic little more. Sorry if this turns into a bit of a rant.

First a little about me I am new to the site and just happened to stumble across it today. I am an avid hunter and fisherman and love all things outdoors. I grew up in eastern SD and have lived here most of my life. I have an engineering degree from SDSU and currently work as an engineer in Brookings. I also continue to be active in the family farm and hope I can afford to transition into that full time at some point.

Between my Dad, brother and myself we farm around 3000 acres. About 3 years ago we decide like many other farmers in the area to invest in a tile plow. However before we did this I spent many hours reading research studies on things such as water quality and total water shed implications. But most importantly I got up and went to seminars and watched other farmers use them.

I recently attended a DU event and was sitting at a table with about a dozen guys most of who were my friends. Of course the topic of tiling came up and everybody had an opinion. I did my best to remain quiet and just let them talk but it amazed me how little they actually knew. One of the guys started giving me a hard time about draining a slough that we have hunted together for years. When I inquired about what he ment he said “I saw you running tile lines through the cattails this spring and now the whole slough is dry I cant believe you would do that”. He as correct that I did some tiling in the surrounding fields this spring but the lines that went to the slough were outlets. I was dumping more water into it. The slough went dry because we had a record drought last year. I brought this up because this is the kind of thing I run into all of the time when tiling is the topic.

The one complaint that I often hear is the farmers are draining all the wetlands. When I ask if they know what a wetland assessment is I usually get a dumb founded look. Before any farmer can tile in SD they have to have a wetland assessment done by a member of the NRCS office. They use a number of variables such as vegetation type and soil makeup to determine if an area is a wetland. They also look at aerial photos of the site from the last decade to determine how often the site has held water. Only if they determine this site is NOT a wetland can it be tiled. Now keep in mind you can still run solid tile through that area or drain into it in most cases, so just because there are tile tracks through cattails doesn’t mean they are draining them. Most of the bad rap tiling receives originated in places like southern MN where every wet spot was drained back in the 60-70’s.

Another comment I often here when it comes to both tiling and the lack of CRP is its all about money for those “greedy farmers”. That is 100 percent correct. I’ll give you an example. I recently purchased 155 acres of land for 7000 per acre. My land payment works out to $58,600 per year or about 380 an acre. I put 15 acres of it into CRP my payment rate is $64 dollars an acre. So its costing me about $4700 a year for an area I hope will be a sweet deer hunting spot some day. It’s not at all that I wouldn’t like more CRP, I can’t afford it!

Back to tiling I truly do believe that when done correctly tiling can be beneficial to farming and water quality. First off over 95% of the tile that I see put in in our area is into ground that is already farmed every year. I can’t disagree some habitat may be lost but most of it is improving existing farmed land. As far as water quality is concerned the water coming from a tile is typically much cleaner than water that is captured during a surface runoff event. Phosphors and potassium two of the major components farmers use to fertilize (and also contributors to lake algae blooms) will not move down through the so soil to reach tile lines. The water coming from tile lines is also typicaly crystal clear and has a very low turbidity. Come on out to my farm and I can personally show you how tiling can reduce erosion.

Another fun one is when we do have a dry year like last summer and people say “ I bet you wish you hadn’t done all that tiling now.” Fortunately tiling does not have any ill effects on a dry year it only removes excess water which would damage plant growth. Once the soil reaches its optimum water level the tile stops running thanks to our friends cohesion and adhesion. And as far as being a major contributor to all the flooding most studies show that total run of only increases between 5-15% and is typical spread out over a longer length of time so I can in fact reduce flash flooding. Plus tile lines are 3-5 feet deep and are usually still froze solid until after most of the spring snow melt.

I could go on all night but I will try to stop here. I guess my point is if you are against tiling that’s fine it’s your opinion but before you rant and rave about how bad farmers are get out of your chair and spend some time out in the field experiencing the process for yourself. I think it’s pretty easy for people to blog about what others are doing wrong while sitting on the couch doing nothing to physically promote wildlife habitat themself. This is coming from a guy who has put in a couple thousand feet of tile and used and excavator to remove trees were they were not beneficial to the farm. But I have also plated about 5000 new trees, put about 100 acres into CRP and plant 6 food plots every year.

It’s just too bad I can’t get those guys at the DU table to stop at my house as often in the spring when it’s time to plant food plots or mow trees as they do in the fall when it’s time to hunt. Travis
 
Travis and Scott are you saying that just because you put in a tile you are not a right wing, greedy, money loving, pheasant hating, wildlife destroying, self centered, son of satin himself?

With all this tiling support group stuff going on I feel that I too should confess that just this spring we put in over a mile of tile.
 
I hate blogs like this, there is no belief in either camp that can be converted. I do like the 1 time posters who sought us out to vent that "we are city folk who don't understand drain tiles", welcome. Sometime engage us on pheasant habitat and or hunting. There are many un-supported, that means not supported by an engaged party, with very different points of view. If you want, do what I did, type in " Good or Bad advantages of tiling in Agriculture", in your search engine. The "greedy" farmers, in my opinion are the desperate farmers, who are over extended, with land cost, machinery debt, input costs. Exactly the recipe of the "dust bowl" days. Hope you don't have to experience it, and neither do we. meanwhile all us down stream of you can treat our drinking water, up our flood insurance and hold on.
 
I think the point they are making is that the enviornmental impacts of tiling are proven to be beneficial by numerous university studies. At the same time there are concerns about the effect of nitrogen leeching when nitrogen management is not adequate. To make blanket statements like some do that tiling is some universally accepted enviornmentally destructive pratice is not a true statement.

As sportsman we are not doing ourselves any favor by universally portraying landowners that don't put ground into CRP, who tile, take out fence lines, use GMO hybrids or do any other pratice which we deem as unbenifical to wildlife as villains. It only drives a wedge between hunters and farmers.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for your post Moellermd. You summed up my thoughts very well.

For me I think what is so disheartening about this discussion is that our (hunters and farmers alike) ultimate goals are very similar yet the perceptions of how to get there are so different.

One thing I should have mentioned is the fact that drain tile allows me to notill. Because of this, erosion is greatly reduced and residue is left on the surface to provide habitat and feed for wildlife. This allows wildlife to flourish on my property. In fact, maybe someone would like to volunteer to feed the two herds of 60+ deer I'm feeding right now.
 
moellermd said:
I think the point they are making is that the enviornmental impacts of tiling are proven to be beneficial by numerous university studies. At the same time there are concerns about the effect of nitrogen leeching when nitrogen management is not adequate. To make blanket statements like some do that tiling is some universally accepted enviornmentally destructive pratice is not a true statement.

As sportsman we are not doing ourselves any favor by universally portraying landowners that don't put ground into CRP, who tile, take out fence lines, use GMO hybrids or do any other pratice which we deem as unbenifical to wildlife as villains. It only drives a wedge between hunters and farmers.
Click to expand...

The statement that tiling is always a villian is not the point. It's not, but wholesale tiling might be! There many studies which indicate that tiling creates many issues of excess water down stream. We also are looking past with a wink, to what is considered a wetland? They sure drain a lot that I see, as "farmable wetlands" which are insured by us, so that the crop they get every three years is gravy and the losses go to insurance recovery. Nitrogen containment? well we try, but the benefit of tiling solves the problem of production, we can solve that in 5 or 6 years. So water quality is a factor, excess water is a factor, whether it's good on your piece of ground or not is irrelevent, it's the harm done elsewhere. We can site studies on either side which go on and on. University studies are paid for and designed to accentuate the positve. If they don't no check for you, they get the other other university to do it. If you are convinced I am wrong, look at the funding, report back. As for Scott, I have at least 60 whitetails yarded up in a creek bottom behind the house, they do fine with browse, and clover. No warm fuzzies for sheperding deer, there two many of those anyway, they take care of themselves, as I see taking my kids to school around the wrecked toyota's on the highway daily. By the way, in that creek bottom there are no quail, no pheasants, maybe a rabbit. It's owned by the city and the conservation officers are trapping the beavers who insist on daming a small ditch. Maybe you guys could trench and tile it?
 
Last edited:
The fact is, the reason so much tiling is going on at this time is, farmers have the money and making improvements and tax deducting expenses.
Farmers are no more greedy then other business men.
Tiling does destroy pheasant habitat, no question. We should be talking ways to improve pheasant habitat.
UPH IS a pheasant friendly forum. (most of the time)

This thread sounds like something You would read in a farm magazine. :rolleyes:
 
mnmthunting said:
The fact is, the reason so much tiling is going on at this time is, farmers have the money and making improvements and tax deducting expenses.
Farmers are no more greedy then other business men.
Tiling does destroy pheasant habitat, no question. We should be talking ways to improve pheasant habitat.
UPH IS a pheasant friendly forum. (most of the time)

This thread sounds like something You would read in a farm magazine. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Here, Here! I thought I was looking at Today's Farmer. :10sign:
 
ScottC said:
I am a farmer from SD. I also hunt and have a decent pheasant population. I also consider myself an environmentalist.

First of all, tiling is EXTREMELY environmentally friendly. It is one of the most important tools we have to protect the soil and water resource. It is tragic the amount of misinformation there is on this topic. Everything Brian Hefty said in his letter is 100% correct.

With that said, if your sole purpose is to preserve pheasant habitat you would be correct in opposing additional tile installation. Some acres that can be tiled can be good pheasant habitat on wet years. Please keep in mind it is illegal to drain and tile wetlands (at least in SD).

It is obvious there is great cynicism here toward the farming community. Some may be just, but please do not generalize. Not all farmers are greedy with there sole goal to produce a profit.
Click to expand...

Scott, great to have you on the forum and especially a farmer to represent the masses. Kansas has much better local representation on their forum than SD.
 
ScottC said:
One thing I should have mentioned is the fact that drain tile allows me to notill. Because of this, erosion is greatly reduced and residue is left on the surface to provide habitat and feed for wildlife. This allows wildlife to flourish on my property. In fact, maybe someone would like to volunteer to feed the two herds of 60+ deer I'm feeding right now.
Click to expand...

Hey ScottC, that is a good one! I just learned something. Notill would be one great advantage of tiling.

Travis, I enjoyed your post and both you guys bring a lot of good info to the table.

The real key in any changes is education.

I do have a concern that anything that augments nature can be like playing with fire and will eventually catch up with us.

Also, I have landowners within my camp systems that are very driven by the commodities markets and don't get the farming for pheasants thing at all. It's only when I can show them they care going to make a buck or lose one can I make the case for changing farming behaviour on their land.

I have other landowners that really GET IT and I can learn anything or two from them.
 
oldandnew said:
Here, Here! I thought I was looking at Today's Farmer. :10sign:
Click to expand...

mnmthunting said:
This thread sounds like something You would read in a farm magazine. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

O&N and MNMT, I would much sooner have guys like Scott and Travis participate in this forum than not.

Sometimes I think that all that participate are guys that like to call themselves hunters and use this place to vent and rant.

I would argue that this thread is one of the best I have read on this forum since day one. You can't have a real good discussion until ALL sides are represented and they rarely are on this forum I am sorry to add.

We better be careful not to get too many native SD farmers on this forum (telling us the TRUTH) or they will kick us non-residents out like North Dakota does:D

(By the way were is TRUTH when you need him)
 
The tiling projects will not stop-- hopefully cover crops will follow they can and do work into standing crops before harvest using ground equipment instead of air. The right cover crop could be a help for the pheasants, it still all about $$$$$ -ROI for the farmer !!! Cover crops will help with clean water and wildlife. Cover crops work very well with no till.
 
Markvan,

You are absolutely correct. We are just beginning to learn what can be accomplished with cover crops. It is really exciting to see conservation come to the forefront of much discussion in agriculture right now. SDSU just finished a study confirming that farming practices of the last 20 years have started to rebuild soil in South Dakota. It's only a matter of time before people start to realize the good things happening in agriculture.
 
markvan said:
The tiling projects will not stop-- hopefully cover crops will follow they can and do work into standing crops before harvest using ground equipment instead of air. The right cover crop could be a help for the pheasants, it still all about $$$$$ -ROI for the farmer !!! Cover crops will help with clean water and wildlife. Cover crops work very well with no till.
Click to expand...

I think cover crops are gaining popularity and do a good job of helping prevent run off. We are planning on planting some after silage and also use it for grazing.
 
FROM UGUIDE: I do have a concern that anything that augments nature can be like playing with fire and will eventually catch up with us.


Would bringing pheasants here from overseas and transplanting them where they weren't naturally constitute augmenting nature? Don't get me wrong I love hunting them and wish there were a lot more, but they weren't here naturally.

Tile is good for lake and streams, like some of the guys here have been trying to explain. If the soil is water logged and water is standing on the surface, more fertilizer and chemicals and top soil will run off not less. When the water runs through the soil it acts like a natural filter.
 
Last edited:
markvan said:
The tiling projects will not stop-- hopefully cover crops will follow they can and do work into standing crops before harvest using ground equipment instead of air. The right cover crop could be a help for the pheasants, it still all about $$$$$ -ROI for the farmer !!! Cover crops will help with clean water and wildlife. Cover crops work very well with no till.
Click to expand...


Hey looks like I missed alot of great discussion the last couple days. And UGUIDE thanks for the wide eyed approach. If anyone has any specific questions about tile or its opperation (good or bad) I more than welcome them.

Again I here "its all about $$$$" which is definatly true for the case of tile. For the last 4 harvest seasons we have had yield mapping capabilites in our combine. I was amazed so see yield flutuations from 50-200+ bu per acre within a single field. We quickly learned the first areas of a field to suffer stress were the poorly drained areas, even in a dryer year. My input cost for corn is going to be about $825 dollars an acre this year. If you take a price of say $6.30/bu my break even point should be around 127bu per acre. If I can take those spots that only produced 75 bu last year and turn them in 150 next year thats the difference of loosing $353 per acre and making $120. Multiply that by 1000 acres and we are talking about nearly a half a million dollars in one season. So while I do agree its all about the money its not about getting rich its about not loosing 350k in one season. Keep in mind we have 3 families involved before you start about me making 120k. Im not tring to turn this into a farm forum again but just trying to help people understand why this is such a tough call for guys like myself.

As you mentioned UPGUIDE it would be great to be able to manage my land more for pheasants and make a living but with 7000-10000 land that takes quite a few hunters a year to pan out. Fortunatly I live in a part of the world where its hard for me to think about doing that. While it would be great for the pheasants I have never paid to hunt anywhere and like wise never charged to dime to hunt on my property. It is my hope that can keep my farm profitable enough that I can share its bounties with friends and family not just those who can afford it.

Another quick point I want to touch on is guys who plow up wet areas and plant them on dry years just so they can collect insurance on them whens its wet. Im sure this certianly has been done but not by very smart farmers. You have to prevent plant atleast 20 acres to collect and typicaly you are just going to waist your input cost and hurt your APH on the years you plant offsetting any payment you may get. For the record I do not support many of the farm programs certianly not the direct payments, but I do stay in the program simply because of the insurance substies. For those of you that think we should do away with this aswell keep in mind the farm program is what also funds the wetland determinations and impliments the rules that we must follow when tiling. If the farm program leaves so do all restrictions on tiling atleast in the county I live in. Sad but true that will make some cattails dry up.

We are all in this together, there are certianly farmers that are going to plow every acre possible but there are also ones who enjoy the wildlife just as much as anyone on this site. Either way to constant negative pressure about how they manage thier land is not going to help anybody when you are knocking on the door this fall. Get out and do what you can.

Travis
 
fsentkilr said:
FROM UGUIDE: I do have a concern that anything that augments nature can be like playing with fire and will eventually catch up with us.


Would bringing pheasants here from overseas and transplanting them where they weren't naturally constitute augmenting nature? Don't get me wrong I love hunting them and wish there were a lot more, but they weren't here naturally.

Tile is good for lake and streams, like some of the guys here have been trying to explain. If the soil is water logged and water is standing on the surface, more fertilizer and chemicals and top soil will run off not less. When the water runs through the soil it acts like a natural filter.
Click to expand...


OK, bringing wild pheasants in via cages is "bad" but putting plastic tile in the ground is "good".

Ummmmm......I gotta think about that a little bit.
 
SDFARMER said:
Im not tyring to turn this into a farm forum again but just trying to help people understand why this is such a tough call for guys like myself.

Travis
Click to expand...

This would not be a bad thing Travis as only when we can sit in the producers chair and see things from his perspective can we truly begin to make the case for change from a point of non-ignorant reasoning.

I took over farming my own farm ground for 1 reason. Because the renters farming system and my farm system we always at conflict with each other.

Turns out I can probably make more than by cash renting it but that was not the main reason.

I did it because:

1. I could
2. I like freedom
3. Aligned with my goals, objectives and vision
4. Was smart business
5. Oh yeah, and it would produce more friendly to pheasants.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top