Remington Nitro Pheasant

R

Rooster Roaster

Banned
Are the Remington Nitro Pheasant loads in the same league as the Federal Pheasant Forever and Fiocchi Golden Pheasant loads?

I'm looking at their 12 gauge 1 1/4 oz 1400 fps loads.

I have some older Remington "Premier Pheasant" loads and they have not impressed me.

Thanks for any info you can pass along.

Dave
 
We'll they are very similar to the Federals in the ballistics you just mentioned. Everyone has their favorite brand/load etc... but in reality the premium shells from most manufacturers are very close. They will perform much better than the best of wingshooters.

I see no reason to believe that the Remington's would not perform as well as the others. Now that is not to say that one will not pattern slightly better than the other out of your gun, but in the real world that will not put any more birds on the table. NO matter what ammo you are using they are only as good as the person pulling the trigger.

Go for it if the price is right.
 
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Thanks.

I should have focused my question a little better. As you probably know, the quality of the shot itself is a big factor. Those older Remington Premier Pheasant loads have pretty soft shot, even though they're copper plated.

Mainly, I'm wondering if the "Nitro" line has better shot these days, and of course any actual field experience anyone can pass along.

Thanks again.
 
What makes you think they are copper plating soft lead shot? If its copper plated I wouldn't think they are using soft lead. Kind of defeats the purpose of copper plating it?? The purpose of copper plating or nickel plating is to make hard shot even harder which produces less flyers, thus a more consistent pattern.

I actually have a box of the Nitro loads (1-3/8oz #4). Haven't used them yet though. According to the box they are using magnum (hard) copper plated shot. That's about as hard as it's going to get sans Nickel plating.
 
Because I can take the shot with a pliers and crush it like mush. If I take some Lawrence copper plated magnum shot that I reload I can hardly crush it at all in the pliers.

Plating doesn't "harden" shot and much of todays copper plating is a copper wash, not true plating anyway.

There's a difference.

These Remington "Premier Pheasant" loads are a few years old and I don't think they are on the market anymore. I bought a bunch at Fleet Farm for $9.99/box. They are not the current the current "copper plated" "Nitro" loads. Just wondering if anyone has tried these newer Nitro's and/or know that they have true hard shot, how they perform, etc. Some of the cheap bargain loads claim to have hard shot, but they are NOT using quality hard shot.

Not trying to be combative or a know-it-all, just want to hear from someone who has some experience with these loads.
 
Rooster Roaster said:
Because I can take the shot with a pliers and crush it like mush. If I take some Lawrence copper plated magnum shot that I reload I can hardly crush it at all in the pliers.

Plating doesn't "harden" shot and much of todays copper plating is a copper wash, not true plating anyway.

There's a difference.

These Remington "Premier Pheasant" loads are a few years old and I don't think they are on the market anymore. I bought a bunch at Fleet Farm for $9.99/box. They are not the current the current "copper plated" "Nitro" loads. Just wondering if anyone has tried these newer Nitro's and/or know that they have true hard shot, how they perform, etc. Some of the cheap bargain loads claim to have hard shot, but they are NOT using quality hard shot.

Not trying to be combative or a know-it-all, just want to hear from someone who has some experience with these loads.
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The plating of shot, whether copper or nickel adds nothing to hardness. In every case the plating is less than .001" thick, and usually less than .0001" It's a sales gimmick, nothing more.

Some shot is alloyed with tin or antimony, which does make it harder than pure lead, but you'll be hard pressed to know which is which. The claims of "hard shot", "magnum shot", etc are, just like plated shot, nothing more than advertising claims.

The theory of shot distortion causing poor patterns due to shot deformation may have had some validity back in the days of high-button shoes, but since the advent of polyethylene shot cups (1960s), shot deformation is a non issue.

Other claims like "nitro" are just sales gimmicks too. ALL smokeless powder is "nitro". "High velocity"? What's that? It's meaningless unless the actual velocity is stated.

Old wive's tales and urban legends continue forever.

You can easily prove the truth for yourself. Get some 48" wide butcher paper and a piece of plywood, and shoot some patterns at 30 or 40 measured yards. Pattern some "cheapo" $7 shells and some "premium" $15 shells of the same shot size and weight, and compare the results. I can promise you that you will not be able to tell them apart.
 
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jnormanh said:
You can easily prove the truth for yourself. Get some 48" wide butcher paper and a piece of plywood, and shoot some patterns at 30 or 40 measured yards. Pattern some "cheapo" $7 shells and some "premium" $15 shells of the same shot size and weight, and compare the results. I can promise you that you will not be able to tell them apart.
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I have done that. There was a big difference. The shot pattern of the premium loads was much more uniform and the shot count in the circle was significantly higher.
 
moellermd said:
I have done that. There was a big difference. The shot pattern of the premium loads was much more uniform and the shot count in the circle was significantly higher.
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I've never been able to see a difference, but I'll take your word that you have.

Here's a comment on the subject from Neil Winston, who I know has spent many, many hours studying shotgun patterns. He agrees with you on the superiority of hard shot, although he finds the difference relatively small.

http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=185766&Messages=6#357326
 
I've patterned lots of different plated and unplated shot and noticed big differences. Even unplated shot that is marketed as being hard and highly polished like kent diamond shot does not pattern as uniform as copper plated shot. Nickel plated loads by b+p and fiocchi pattern even better than copper plated shot.
 
Plating doesn't "harden" shot and much of todays copper plating is a copper wash, not true plating anyway.
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The plating of shot, whether copper or nickel adds nothing to hardness. In every case the plating is less than .001" thick, and usually less than .0001" It's a sales gimmick, nothing more.
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Where are you guys getting your information from? I don't mean to imply that your wrong, just curious as to your sources.

Everything I have ever read states that plating lead shot, whether copper and especially nickel states the opposite.
 
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birdshooter said:
Where are you guys getting your information from? I don't mean to imply that your wrong, just curious as to your sources.

Everything I have ever read states that plating lead shot, whether copper and especially nickel states the opposite.
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For my part, I worked for 40 years in the plating industry, and I can tell you that electroplated .001" on shot is absolutely impractical, .0001" is reasonable, but not easy.

Here's once reference which talks about "flash" copper plating on shot. Within the plating industry "flash" means <.0001"

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/products.asp?dept=66

Some confusion arises because of confusion with metal jacketed and/or copper clad bullets. In those cases, the copper clad layer is stamped from thin copper sheet, perhaps .005'-.010" thick, into which lead bullets are pressed. At those thicknesses, it does serve to contain expansion/distortion/fragmenting.

You could ask any of the shotshell manufacturers how thick their copper/nickel plating is. I'll hazard a guess they will not tell you.

Or you could try a simple experiment. Empty plated shot form a shell, then, holding the shot stationary, wipe a piece of medium grit sandpaper across it. You will cut trough the plating in a single wipe. Then try sandpapering a clad bullet. It will take dozens of strokes to cut through the cladding.
 
You can site years of works experience, and sand paper fiddlins but the patterning board is dead opposite of what your saying. Hundreds of articles, books, and internet post have been made that also say your dead wrong. Patterns aside plated shot draws less feathers, and also deforms less both of which increase penetration. Better penetration and better patterns are never bad and its fact that plating makes a difference in both regards.
 
birdshooter said:
Where are you guys getting your information from? I don't mean to imply that your wrong, just curious as to your sources.
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I've read it from a modern shotgun ballistics expert named Tom Roster. I've also been told the same by Larry Brown who writes regular columns in Pointing Dog Journal and other hunting magazines, and Larry has written an excellent book on pheasant hunting. I shoot clay targets every summer with Larry and we have corresponded for years. Even sold him a couple shotguns. These guys have far more industry knowledge than I do, and I trust their statements.
 
wisturkeyhunter said:
You can site years of works experience, and sand paper fiddlins but the patterning board is dead opposite of what your saying. Hundreds of articles, books, and internet post have been made that also say your dead wrong. Patterns aside plated shot draws less feathers, and also deforms less both of which increase penetration. Better penetration and better patterns are never bad and its fact that plating makes a difference in both regards.
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Well I'd agree with you on the patterning. But those guys are dead right on the hardness thing. No one but the ammo companies claim copper plating increases hardness, from what I have read nickle plating adds a little. The decrease in deformed pellets probably is due to a harder lead to begin with. The reason you see less feather draw is the plating does create a smoother outside texture which grabs less feathers.
 
You can't have it both ways either it increases patterning cause it harder or it does not. Take a plain lead even good quality lead, and copper plated lead and hit it softly with a happy tell me what one deforms more. I do agree with the feather draw cause its smoother and thats a good thing. I mostly shoot nickel plated shot anyways.
 
My point is that the lead shot was harder to begin with that is the big reason for less deformed shot hence tighter pattern. Also the smoother outside creates a more aerodynamic surface creating truer flight. Bob Brister talks about this in his book Shotgunning The Art and Science. No one believes that the copper adds hardness.
 
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moellermd said:
My point is that the lead shot was harder to begin with that is the big reason for less deformed shot hence tighter pattern. Also the smoother outside creates a more aerodynamic surface creating truer flight. Bob Brister talks about this in his book Shotgunning The Art and Science. No one believes that the copper adds hardness.
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Agreed! A good part of deformed shot comes from "setback." When shot goes from 0 to about 900 miles per hour in an instant, the pellets at the bottom of the cup get smushed by the top portion of the load. Good hard shot helps reduce the setback deformation problem. Better uniform patterns follow.
 
I emailed the boys at Ballistic Products and here was an attachment they sent me.

COPPER/NICKEL PLATED LEAD SHOT
Charles Olin, the driving force behind Winchester-Olin (pre WWII) was an innovative duck hunter – and factory manager. This fine gentleman created many novel improvements in the world of shotshells. We all owe the man for his wisdom - and for his badgering of load engineers for products HE desired. Items such as buffered loads and plated shot were only a portion of his long list of load creations.
Copper plated shot may be laid on any quality of lead shot. Hard lead shot or soft lead shot. There are loads wherein a soft lead base increases pellet lethality. Lead accepts a copper coating thick or thin. Thick plating allows lead pellets to penetrate through feathers, muscle and fat, deep inside to the vitals of your target. Thin plating allows soft lead pellets to penetrate, then drop energy in muscle tissue.
In order to NICKEL plate a lead pellet, the lead must first be coated with a thin (blush coating) of copper, as nickel will not adhere to lead. Nickel provides a mirror smooth finish on a pellet allowing far deeper penetration. Deep penetration allows even smaller diameter pellets to become far more lethal and to present solid shot streams into all targets. (The Italian and Spanish Olympic skeet teams use nickel plated shot and all too often skunk the other teams.)
The use of soft lead pellets (less or possibly no antimony being added to the lead slurry) depends upon the intended target and the desired result. Many older shooters swear SOFT lead pellets, especially those of a size or two larger than usually associated with the intended game, carried high energy levels to the target. Certainly physics supports this construction. The intent was to deposit a high level of energy upon the target surface (or just below the surface) thus utilizing shock (an instant sharp rise in blood pressure) to produce instant lethality. Deep penetration in this case, is not the primary desire. Thus the choice of soft lead pellets and hard lead pellets remains the shooters choice upon the TARGET. So then gauge the shooters intent. What is the shooter attempting to accomplish?
Theory: Clay targets break even with one pellet when “hard” lead is utilized. Prove it! Hard lead pellets “pattern better” than softer lead pellets. Again, prove it. (Patterning is accomplished by NOT moving your shotgun. How many targets are shot without moving a shotgun? Few! Therefore with gun movement, you shoot a stream of shot. (Not a “pattern”.) Shot streams take far different forms than stationary “patterns”. Patterning tells the shooter where this particular shotgun (and sighting picture) is sending a stationary shot stream. (Up, down, left, right). Nothing else. You have no idea which pellets arrived at the target first or last.


I stand corrected on the plating of soft lead.
 
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Well, since we have two pages of posts here and no one could tell me about the newest Remington "Nitro Pheasant" loads, I bought a box today and I'll find out for myself which is how I pretty much know everything I know that's worth knowing in you know what I mean! Ya know?

Soon as I fill my WI deer tag I'll be back after those roosters.
 
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