Increasing distance of point

T

tomt

Active member
My 11month old female lab is doing “well” with locating, pointing and whoaing. However, she stops way too close to the birds. If the Chuckers are in deeper grass they hold pretty good (pen raised and would rather they flushed early rather then letting her get close enough to almost stick her nose on them). If in thin cover they flush early which is fine by me or worse, run and then she starts chasing them.
Any ideas about increasing the distance between her and the bird without using a launcher (don’t have one or know where to borrow one).

Maybe thinking Better Obedience and then whoaing with planted birds so I know when to whoa her rather then hunting released (rather then planted) birds that are out running around for awhile prior to “hunting”???
 
tomt said:
My 11month old female lab is doing “well” with locating, pointing and whoaing. However, she stops way too close to the birds. If the Chuckers are in deeper grass they hold pretty good (pen raised and would rather they flushed early rather then letting her get close enough to almost stick her nose on them). If in thin cover they flush early which is fine by me or worse, run and then she starts chasing them.
Any ideas about increasing the distance between her and the bird without using a launcher (don’t have one or know where to borrow one).

Maybe thinking Better Obedience and then whoaing with planted birds so I know when to whoa her rather then hunting released (rather then planted) birds that are out running around for awhile prior to “hunting”???
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Best idea would be to start doing wild birds. They will be the best teacher. If you do really want to get ahead then the launcher would be best, but do keep in mind 11 months is still young and bumping birds is a part of learning for pointing.
 
LittleBigHorn22 said:
Best idea would be to start doing wild birds. They will be the best teacher. If you do really want to get ahead then the launcher would be best, but do keep in mind 11 months is still young and bumping birds is a part of learning for pointing.
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Wild birds happen soon as season starts. Only choices close by are grouse ( which she has bumped) and ducks, which she loves but I haven’t spent too much time with since I’m working on the point prior to teaching her handling skills. She does well with sitting until sent in the duck blind or at least as well as one can hope a 11 month old can do. 😉
I suppose I understand that this is going to be a learning year, as much as I would love to speed things along..🤞🏼
 
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Most of the PLs that I’ve seen do point pretty close to planted birds (mostly at hunt tests) or on training days. And the same dog may or may not point wild birds depending on cover and whether the bird starts to run. I personally wouldn’t worry about it unless I was going to run APLA tests.
 
TomT, I have a 3yr old PL and do not have any issues with the proximity of his points to the birds, even during hunt tests or preserve planted birds. I don't think he makes a legit decision to point X distance away, just locks up on the initial scent. Even on planted birds his distance varies on each bird based on the wind, moisture, and terrain. I do agree with LCR10A on the wild bird aspect and the hunt test scenario. I have never seen any of the judges dock points, at an APLA test, for pointing too close to the bird.
 
Good points by LC. I also don’t believe the APLA lJudges will ding the dog at a test for being “too close” to a planted bird.
 
A point is a point, low humidity and wind dictate so much. Coming from the desert down here when we get a high humidity day point distances can double. Don’t sweat it if the dog is steady.
 
LC Smith said:
TomT, I have a 3yr old PL and do not have any issues with the proximity of his points to the birds, even during hunt tests or preserve planted birds. I don't think he makes a legit decision to point X distance away, just locks up on the initial scent. Even on planted birds his distance varies on each bird based on the wind, moisture, and terrain. I do agree with LCR10A on the wild bird aspect and the hunt test scenario. I have never seen any of the judges dock points, at an APLA test, for pointing too close to the bird.
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Thanks for this reply. I’m realizing that it’s the locking up on the initial scent is what I’m looking to develop. I can see her catch wind of the bird and then move in until she can see it (then point) rather then lock up on the smell. Obviously, this will not provide me a shot (or her a retrieve) with a wild bird.

I know whoa is not a point, but … She is fairly well whoa trained, although I don’t whoa her until she is pointing and looking like she might go in on the bird. Although she doesn’t move when the bird flies, she takes off at the sound of the shotgun. She will return to me quickly with a verbal or whistle command but obviously I haven’t got her “steady to shot”. I don’t have a training partner so any advice on how to get that done by yourself would be appreciated
 
I wouldn't worry too much about it now. If you want to teach him to " stand game" that's fine, you have a big head start if he is indicating he smells them before he points.
 
The scent cone around planted birds is small compared to that of a resting/sleeping wild bird. Birds that have moved some leave a broader scent cone around them. I believe that summer greens (chlorophyll) mask bird scent somewhat ... this helps protect nesting hens some too ... versus the dried grasses of fall.

Moisture and wind (speed and direction) also play a factor.

I would see if you could wait a bit after planting birds and do not rock them too much when planting. Give the planted birds a bit of time to start to move some. Works as long as they simply do not walk out into the open.
 
I have tied a light length of orange ribbon to a planted birds foot, in case it walks “off”. Especially with an inexperienced dog
 
BRITTMAN said:
hen we approach The scent cone around planted birds is small compared to that of a resting/sleeping wild bird. Birds that have moved some leave a broader scent cone around them. I believe that summer greens (chlorophyll) mask bird scent somewhat ... this helps protect nesting hens some too ... versus the dried grasses of fall.

Moisture and wind (speed and direction) also play a factor.

I would see if you could wait a bit after planting birds and do not rock them too much when planting. Give the planted birds a bit of time to start to move some. Works as long as they simply do not walk out into the open.
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Thanks for the suggestion. This has worked well so far, I’ve done 2 upland sessions today in the am and pm. Yesterday I focused on insuring basic obedience is sound. Im fortunate in that I have 120plus acres of sagebrush, grass and wetlands that I caretake close by as well as a large flight pen of chuckers so I can work on this as much as I feel is appropriate.
Here is an update …

I have started to walk at least 30 min and close to a mile prior to approaching the birds, which helps to get her (the pup) energy burned off a bit. The added time has enabled the chuckers to move around,which removes the inadvertent “hints” that im giving the pup when I walk towards the planted birds. However, in reflection I believe that my obidence has slipped, so also go back and work on basic obedience, including hold and whoa for a few minutes prior to each field session (although at a different site).

Prior to approaching the area where the birds are located, I work on keeping her responsive to me and within 35-40 yards which is all the further I want her to go this first year. She is crazy dominant and I have no worries about her extending her range as she gets older if her point gets rock solid. As we get in the general area of the birds, I can see her body language change and watch for that quick pause that tells me she is on a scent. I don’t say anything and let her move in and if she busts it so be it, however after the 2nd chucker this morning she started to point again like she did a few weeks ago. Then I whoa her, flush the bird and shoot it. This evening she didn’t bust any, although she is sitting at times when I walk past her (which I correct gently) rather then remaining at point. I do have to work on dechaseing again, but she does stop when I give her the command.

So overall, thanks for the ideas and suggestions, it’s been a long road so far and looking forward to continuing down it with her.
And yes, this is a pic of her retrieving a Widgeon, completely different game but oh how she loves it!!
IMG_0822.jpeg
 
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LCR10A said:
Thanks for the update. Are you planning on running the pup in APLA tests?
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I live pretty far from any clubs or groups that support each other and put those events on, so besides occasionally looking at their Facebook page, I’m not at all familiar with that lifestyle. My main goal is to have a good hunting companion. I have attended one Rocky Mtn training session when Kali was 4 months old but they meet about 5 hrs away. Unfortunately, I am on this journey to train a PL without ever actually seeing one in action (besides the one puppy training I attended), depending heavily on Julie Bates book and podcasts. Hence, I tend to second guess a lot of what I’m doing. It seems to be progressing well but I would like to observe others and get their feedback in person
 
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Tom,
Don't hesitate to reach out to Julie or any of the others that post on a regular basis. She is super approachable and will help you. I think you will find a ton of the pro's and DIY folks will be more than helpful in your APLA journey.
 
I think that there a southern Colorado HRC club, possibly based out of Pueblo? The retrieving stuff is generally the same. Their upland test requires the dog to flush the bird and then be steady to wing and shot. At one time I thought having a pointing lab would be the greatest! I purposely looked for them when I adopted puppies. I have 2 now, both out of 4xGMPRs (both the mom and the dad). One points birds in the right situation and the othe doesn’t. I’ve come to appreciate the flusher. So long as the flusher works reasonably close and listens, which mine does reasonably well, I can tell when there’s a bird around. She’s really fun to hun with! I think Lucas’s dog Sage does a great job of pointing and relocating (check out the video string in the forum).
 
Tom, don't loose sight of the fact you still have a puppy. An 11 month old dog will always have a lot of room to improve. The dog needs the time and opportunity to learn. Sounds like you are giving that to her.
The old saying 'birds make a bird dog' holds true. BUT wild birds are where you make hay. Especially if you can't control the birds with a launcher. Being in complete control of the training session is where you will make ground. With out control of what pen raised birds do, run/walk/flush, you will have a very hard time trying to finish your dog.

120 acres is great but if you can't control the learning you'd be better of with 5 acres a luncher and some pigeons. Keep the dog under control with a check cord. Send the bird when the time is right. Dogs learn best in short sessions. Your dog will get way more out of 10 min in a controlled scenario than an hour where you are not in control. Where all you can do is hope the bird does what you need it to and if not that sets up bad habits. There might be a pointing breed club near you. For example; pointers, setters, brits, gsp's, navda, nstra.
 
Some training I do with a pup is have a bird in a launcher and launch the bird the second you know the dog has scented the bird and dont allow the dog to chase. I typically use 3-6 birds with this drill and then the pup will lock up on first scent. I run Drahthaars so your experience may vary but I've had good luck doing this
 
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