Hard Mouth

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WildPhez

New member
Who has experience with a dog who would really smash quail on the retrieve at a young age? I have read articles about wrapping a quail in wire, or having the harness you put the bird in with little spikes on it, but I don't remember my other dogs doing this as much as my current 10 month old. As far as freshly killed birds, he has only had quail in his mouth which are pretty fragile to start but man they seem beat up when he brings them back. He doesn't ever act like he is trying to eat/swallow them but it is concerning. It will be interesting to see if he will smash pheasants which are obviously bigger and a little more hardy. I plan to have him force fetched (not by me) and understand that this is a long term solution, but before that happens is this that common? I don't recall this being such a concern. I toss frozen pigeons and he doesn't seem to chomp on the retrieve. I also read an article about injecting a bitter tasting substance into the breast of the bird and if he chomps the bird he will get the bad taste and learn not to break the flesh. I don't recall the age they were talking about and am just wondering if this is a juvenile thing that he is experimenting with something new in his mouth or should I start taking action now?
 
Hard mouth is an inherited trait. It can be hard to cure. You can do the force fetch and hold program to settle it down. Keep using the frozen birds as much as possible, that helps. And yes using the harness with fresh birds helps as well. You most likely won't stop it all together, but rather get it down to tolerable.
 
hardmouth

I agree it's heritable. There used to be a famous line of old time pointers that literally ate the first 5 0r 6 quail shot. Never saw any of them cured completely. Witnessed many generations of the line. Great open all-age dogs, where retrieving isn't a factor. Darn hard to hunt with! Now days with so few quail, disasterous! I have used the quail harness with live birds, successfully, and even barbed wire in my youth, but you need to be careful, because if they bite hard enough, sometimes they decide they don't want to pick anymore up, and give the whole retrieving game the boot.
 
Could you elaborate on the quail harness? My 8mo pup seems to have an issue getting the handle on live quail and have seen him just squeeze the life out of them. He does seem to be improving and this morning his retrieved birds were unharmed. Hopefully with time and experience it won't be an issue.
 
quail harness

I think you can get a quail harness from Lion country supply, dunn's, boatright. any of the dog supply/training suppliers. I would hesitate to use one on the dog you describe, due to the facts as presented, that the dog seems to be developing some moderation himself. The spike harness is simply a harness worn by a live quail, that has big sharp spikes, that stick the gums and mouth of the dog if he grips it hard. Can be used to cure hardmouth, and equally to ruin a retrieving dog of softer temperment. Most of my pointers and setters got to the point where they kinda throw the bird at you, lift up when near you, raise up on the front end and flip the bird at you. Not a classic retrieve, such is the result of the spike harness. Doesn't bother me as much as getting soggy goo smushed birds. with canine holes, but a little disconcerting when the birds alive, and flight worthy! Have had to shoot them again, literally.
 
well I am waiting for the day that my lab pup developes a hard mouth, right now she still has a soft mouth, has brought me back live birds all season. She cought a rooster a couple weeks ago after a nice snow that we had, brought it back as alive as can be. I know my dads labs in the past have all been forced trained and had soft mouths up until the day they got spurred by a rooster during a return, and I am just waiting for the day that my pup gets spurred and realizes it's just easier to kill them than to get hurt from the bird... This is just my experience
 
Good point waterdog. Thats why many trainers will bring a dog along on pigeons and hens, untill the confidence is solid. Then when switching to training with roosters we cut the spurs off. This helps avoid some of those bad habits from being picked up untill they get a quick pick up. Your pup having that mouth is a good thing.:thumbsup:
 
Wildphez, how's that dog doing? My first hunting dog ever was a yellow lab. Got it when I was about 11 years old. His sire and dam were both FC champions, and he hunted birds like none other, but he had the HARDEST mouth. I generally ended up racing him to any bird that I shot. I can't remember ever losing a bird with him, but I can only remember one retrieve that he ever made. I winged a pheasant that had to have glided 400-500 yards. He took off after it and I waited around for about 10 minutes waiting for him before he brought it back. He must have been surprised to see me not chasing him and wanted to hurry back to see if I was okay :)

I tried the pigeon harness, putting needles in the bird, really everything I could think of (which granted, at about 12 years of age, there wasn't a whole lot I could think of). You've definitely get a hard road ahead of you. I don't know how attached you are to your dog, but if you really want a good bird dog that retrieves well, you might have to look at another dog. Otherwise, you can always race your dog like I did!

I do have one suggestion that might help. I never tried it with my lab, but I've used it with my cockers when they are slow to pick the bird up. As soon as your dog picks up the bird, try running the OTHER way. If he sees you running, he should run to catch up, and might forget to mouth the bird. If you do it enough, it could potentially help his hard mouth. It'd be worth trying at least.
 
My son just went through this with a GSP. He and the Trainer used a round hairbrush with the handle cut off.........Bob
 
I wouldn't say to get a new dog. You can make it through to acceptable levels. The dog may squeeze the bird, but if he is not trashing the bird all together or tearing the meat all the time. You can live with that. And those methods every one described will get you there. Especially dobbs force fetch program.
 
You're right, I was saying that slightly in jest. It sure can be a hard problem to fix though. I hope we get an update soon.
 
It will take him a while. CF you had a tougher experience with that 12 year old. That would be a very difficult task. One has to admire the effort and giving a home to a dog. At least you gave him a shot.:thumbsup:
 
FCSpringer said:
It will take him a while. CF you had a tougher experience with that 12 year old. That would be a very difficult task. One has to admire the effort and giving a home to a dog. At least you gave him a shot.:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure I should have done a better job of clarifying that last point of mine. I was the 12 year old :) I bought that Lab at 7 weeks of age when I was about 11 years old, so I would have been about 12 when I was working on the hard mouth problem. Darnedest thing, I watched his dam work and she was a beautiful retriever. His sire was a FC as well. BUT, he had the hardest mouth ever, and often wouldn't even try to bring the bird back as he'd rather just chew it. I spent a lot of time training that dog, but I don't think I really knew what I was doing. I'm sure I contributed to his terrible mouth.

Sad part is, my older brother got a Lab about the same time as me. She didn't have half the pedigree that my dog did, and my brother didn't train her half as much as I trained my dog. But in spite of that, she had a perfect mouth and would retrieve all day long. She wasn't as good at flushing as my dog was, so I guess they kind of complimented each other, but I wouldn't have minded it if my dog retrieved either!
 
hardmouthed

Work with dummies, frozen birds, bristle brushes. If that doesn't work, force fetching may be the last option.
 
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