Force fetch

S

ScottH

Member
Hi guys I am new here and well to bird hunting in general. I have a 7 month old GSP I had professionally trained. Issue is he will not retrieve birds. He points holds point and runs to the bird picks it up drops it and moves on. So talking to a guy at a pheasant hunt and and he said only way to break this is to force fetch. Me being new to all of this and not wanting to screw up my dog I opted to have a professional do it. My only issue is he has to be away for a month. Is it worth having done or is there any other way?? I’ve tried dead birds and all. He retrieves sticks and balls but not a bird.
Thanks in advance
 

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Are you going back to the same trainer that you used originally? IMO, one month is not very long for a thorough and fair job of force fetch to be applied to a dog. Your decision to make but I would be leery of a person who said they could accomplish a complete FF program in one month. I would be asking to see the trainer work some dogs at various stages and see how the dogs respond to the trainer. I have FF'd a lot of dogs and I personally would not consider one fully forced in that short of a length of time. Especially, if I had not done the prior foundation work before FF started. Everyone has different standards and expectations. Watch some of the trainers dogs work and let them speak to the effectiveness of his or her methods.

I should add... retrieving to hand is but one element of FF. I view it as the foundation to a larger set of skills that will include beginning handling and teaching a dog to complete blind retrieves. If delivering a bumper or bird to hand is all you seek then the time frame is possibly doable if your dog is highly motivated and cooperative and the trainer is experienced.
 
Thanks guys for the responses. I am no pro and am simply looking for a hunting partner. He dosent have to be perfect but would like him to retrieve some. This guy told me a month to a month and a half. I will have to see if I can find some of his dogs but not same trainer I used originally
 
You do not necessarily need a hunting dog trainer to teach the forced fetch. Many obedience trainers also do it. Was at a seminar once where the instructor force fetched a German Shepard in 4 days. That was 30 plus years ago and was a lot more brutal than I would do it now. But it worked very well, the dog would put anything in his mouth and deliver it to hand. It would be beneficial to learn how to do it yourself, than you can always reinforce it if necessary. A couple books and an hour or two with someone who really knows what they are doing and you should be able to accomplish it. All it would take is 5 minutes a day , with some dogs only a few days with others maybe longer.
 
ScottH said:
Thanks guys for the responses. I am no pro and am simply looking for a hunting partner. He dosent have to be perfect but would like him to retrieve some. This guy told me a month to a month and a half. I will have to see if I can find some of his dogs but not same trainer I used originally
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Hey Scott? Look up my post on "kitchen training" for a truly primitive technique for getting a pup to retrieve. Not professional at all.
It's worked for three GWPs, and one field springer spaniel.
Others here are smarter and more professional. I'm just a guy with a dog.

best wishes.
 
IMO Force Fetch/Collar Conditioning is essential, I won't have a dog that isn't FF/CC. It turns retrieving from a fun game the dog does when & as long as it feels like it, into a fun task to be done perfectly on command. As an aside, every dog I sent off for FF/CC came back with even more enthusiasm to train, if that's possible with labs.

Without FF/CC, you don't have a tool to correct a refused retrieve and sooner or later, every dogs refuses. In addition to being able to correct a refusal, collar conditioning gives you a method to communicate with & guide your dog from a distance. For example, I use the page feature as sort of a tap on the shoulder to tell my dogs when they are hunting too far out, a reminder that they need to pay attention to me as well as finding birds.

I agree that you should pay a pro to FF/CC your dog if you've never done it. IMO it does a dog good to undergo training from another handler who isn't emotionally attached to it. There is no way to put completion of FF/CC into a hard time frame. I've had dogs that breezed through in 6 weeks, and one that took 4 months that we nearly gave up on & washed out. That dog, who got through by the skin of her teeth, developed into one of my best ever at three hand casting. I would say on average, it has taken 8-9 weeks for my dogs to complete...
 
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You state that you have a GSP that is 7 months old and has already been professionally trained. That is quite young to already have been sent to a trainer unless it was just for some basic obedience. I'd be curious as to exactly what training was done. How long did the trainer have your dog?

I also feel that trying put your dog through a FF program at 7 months is way to early. The dog is still a puppy. I think you are expecting too much from your dog at this age.
 
So FF will be around a year old until he goes. So the trainer taught him how to hold point and gun work. Like so said by far I am no pro. My pup holds point very well but just won’t retrieve shot birds. He retrieves toys. Is him not retrieving birds too much for a 7 month old? Again I am brand new to bird dogs I just go by what others tell me
 
ScottH said:
So FF will be around a year old until he goes. So the trainer taught him how to hold point and gun work. Like so said by far I am no pro. My pup holds point very well but just won’t retrieve shot birds. He retrieves toys. Is him not retrieving birds too much for a 7 month old? Again I am brand new to bird dogs I just go by what others tell me
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There's one school of thought (not necessarily mine) that no formal training should happen until 6 months old. Up to that point it's all play, exploration, bonding, positivity (from you), & miscellaneous puppy activity. Granted you want to be injecting commands during this "play" time & they'll start to learn some real basic stuff. But no actual training sessions & certainly no gunfire intro. That's one approach.
 
ok I guess my thing is this. I can throw toys and things like that and he will get them and bring them right to me. Issue is hunting I shoot a bird he runs out Ickes it up drops it and leaves. What do I do??
 
A5 Sweet 16 said:
There's one school of thought (not necessarily mine) that no formal training should happen until 6 months old. Up to that point it's all play, exploration, bonding, positivity (from you), & miscellaneous puppy activity. Granted you want to be injecting commands during this "play" time & they'll start to learn some real basic stuff. But no actual training sessions & certainly no gunfire intro. That's one approach.
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Have never trained anything but labs so I don't rightly know how closely a retriever program mirrors a pointer program. That being said, for a point of comparison I prefer to get a pup from a late winter/early spring litter and take my pup from the litter at 7 weeks old, no sooner, no later. I don't begin formal OB until 16 weeks old. they get sent off for FF/CC as soon as practical after the adult teeth are fully in and OB is rock solid (I don't know a pro that will accept a pup for FF/CC unless it's OB is rock solid). This always seems to be around 10 -11 months. After they get back from FF/CC we continue intermediate training. After getting back from FF (around 12-13 months) the pup gets it's first actual upland hunting experience at a shooting preserve with pheasants. This is under tightly controlled conditions so the pup will succeed and have fun doing it, as such I handle the pup and I have someone else shoot. We continue on with intermediate into advanced tasks. At about 14 months I teach the pup 3 hand casting, and polish up it's distance marking/handling (the rule of thumb I follow is train the dog to twice the distance you anticipate it's longest retrieves will realistically be, i.e. if you figure the long will be around 200 yards, train to 400). We now move to field blind, boat, platforms, and decoy spreads, then at about 16-17 months finish with some fun tasks (article search, finding & retrieving lost arrows, shed hunting, blood trailing). As a rule of thumb, my now young adult dog is ready for it's first season at 16-18 months old, right on time for early goose season up here. At the conclusion of the program the dog has rock sold OB, is steady to wing & shot, does doubles/triple marks to 300-400 yards, and handles to 400 (about as far as the dog can see the hand signals). It will hunt waterfowl from boat, shore, or field blind, is solid on upland, and will blood trail big game...
 
ScottH said:
ok I guess my thing is this. I can throw toys and things like that and he will get them and bring them right to me. Issue is hunting I shoot a bird he runs out Ickes it up drops it and leaves. What do I do??
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I think the most tried & true method of addressing this is FF.
There are obviously less formal methods that have worked too, as people have mentioned above.
With my 2nd springer, I'd accidentally taught him NOT to retrieve birds in a hunting situation. He'd retrieve anything else under the sun. Tried FF (by myself) & it didn't seem like a good fit for us. Taught him it was OK & desirable to retrieve pheasants by playing fetch with a dead one in the water. Then moved to weeds, cattails, etc. Took about an hour & the problem was solved. But will that work w/ every dog & have the same potential benefits of FF?? Nope. I knew my dog & got lucky after 3 seasons of scratching my head.
My 1st springer was 5 months old when he started hunting on opening day. For the 1st 1/2 of the season, he just found downed birds. Then one day he just started retrieving them on his own at 6-1/2 months old. Some dogs just do that. Maybe yours would too if you shoot enough birds over him. Who knows?
It all depends on you & your dog. I think to get real specific advice from the people here, they have to know your dog. Well, that's going to be difficult. So the default answer to your question is what has worked most frequently for most people. And that's FF.
 
Ok Thank u yea we play with dead birds in the yard. He will retrieve them when he wants to it seems but is Definately slower with it then his tous
 
Ok just had him in yard with dead frozen chukar and zero issues retrieving but last Saturday wouldn’t touch a shot bird. Just a young thing??
 
ScottH said:
Ok just had him in yard with dead frozen chukar and zero issues retrieving but last Saturday wouldn’t touch a shot bird. Just a young thing??
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Could be any of a thousand things: hasn't seen many shot birds; being in the field isn't the same as the back yard; isn't rock solid on "fetch"; maybe you even conditioned him to not retrieve shot birds.

Here's one thing that happens a lot in the field, especially with pheasants. Dog goes out there not being a solid retriever of shot birds. Bird gets shot & dog finds it. Owner encourages a retrieve, but when the dog doesn't do it, goes & picks the bird up himself. Dog just got let off the hook (even though he shouldn't have been expected to retrieve it in the 1st place, since he went into the situation not rock solid). Commonly, then, the owner either scolds the dog or praises the dog, both of which make matters worse.

Here's what I believe happened to my 2nd dog. I had 1 season w/ him & my older dog. That season, it didn't matter which dog got to the bird 1st, the older one ALWAYS made the retrieve. They'd both come back to me, the older one w/ the bird & what'd I do? I praised them both!! Whether the young one would've retrieved if the old one weren't there....who knows? But I damn sure taught him that year that it was fabulous that he found the bird & didn't bring it to me. So I had a finder only for 3 more seasons (older dog died) until I was lucky enough to resolve the issue. But for those 3 seasons, he'd sit by the bird & smile. After I realized this is what he was doing, in real thick cover, I'd have to walk, stop, & listen for his panting. That's how I had to find him. Then of course when I found him & the bird, I'd praise him.🤦‍♂️ I'm no pro & hindsight is always 20/20, but I wish I knew then what I know now.
 
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