feather chewing on retrive

D

dottie

New member
I have a 2 year old Brittany. I am a complete Novice hunter/ trainer. Zippy will retrieve bumpers, or *generally anything I toss or place for fetching. He will retrieve and return to front and sit and hold until I command give.....but if we try this with a live/shot bird or a bumper with feathers taped on .....he will nibble/ chew on the *bird/ feathered bumper. He has a soft mouth mouth so the bird is not damaged but his *feather chewing is annoying and does not meet the level of the rest of his behavior/training.

I would appreciate any suggestions to correct this behavior.




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Sounds like a "puppy thing." You should get lots of suggestions on this site and there are vollumes written on the subject - you might want to get a good book or video for this problem.

It's difficult to correct the chewing, if you're using freshly shot birds - one can't control the experience and make a correction. Feather-wrapped dummy might be more efficient, until the dog is beyond the chew habit.

Some have used a barbed- wrapped dummy, others sprinkle cyanne powder on the feathers. This may not be easy to correct, so be patient...
 
IMO, you want to cease retrieving work and take Zippy through HOLD training with a dowel, the bare bumper, the feathered bumper, then bird. Start inside at sit, then inside at heel, then outside with distractions etc... Baby steps. Go through it all with the dowel. Then all with the bumper, then all with feathered bumper, etc... By the end, Zippy should hold the bird without dropping, shaking, chewing etc... I followed the exact advice to fix this with my last lab and it worked. If you look at HOLD training stuff online you will see a lot of pain compliance stuff. Strings tied around the toes, pinching ears and so-on. Don't let that scare you off. It does not have to be that way ( I'm treading on very contentious ground by saying that!). In my experience, it can be done positively, although you must INSIST, even if no pain compliance is involved. Any questions, feel free to ask, but much of this stuff is online.
Dave
 
FCSpringer said:
Use some frozen birds for a while on retrieve training. Just encourage him to bring it back promptly, followed with praise.
Click to expand...

I am NOT an authority, just an old guy.

With my dogs, I do kitchen training: close off the kitchen with me and the dog. I sit on the floor, holding the dog's leash (well, sitting on it.)

Take a frozen feathered quail/pheasant, and work on "fetch." Dog chases, grabs, starts mouthing, I say "no." Dog ignores me.

I repeat. Dog thinks I'm a tease, but unstable and perhaps it should obey. Every grab and and chew..."NO." Dog is now wondering how it can get to a phone and call for psychiatric help for me. If dog ignores me, quick leash tug reminds dog of our connection.

We continue until I get two in a row.

We stop, dog gets treat. Bird back in the freezer back, kitchen taken off lock down. Dog out on the yard line, after extravagant praise.

Couple times a day, minimum; takes about a week to be steady.

Sweep the kitchen floor for evidence of frozen bird work.

(If dog tries to get a couple of chews in before I get there, then I stop throwing the bird and just open dog's mouth, order fetch, and insert bird. Command "out" and remove bird, praise dog, repeat three or four times. Then back to toss and "fetch."

My premise is I don't have to be smarter than dog, just more stubborn. As the dog steadies down to the role of hunter/retriever, it is convinced I'm "not quite right" and all the dogs I've owned and trained for friends, have brought back live birds to their owner upon occasion.

However you do it, have fun with it.

Best wishes.
 
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Dogs should not have to be force fetched. But if positive reinforcement does not work that's your last play. There is a ton of things you can do to get your dog to retrieve properly with out force breaking. But it should start at weeks old. Some breeds are known to be problematic. I don't have to use force with any of my dogs, ever.;) Oh and with all due respect, I whole heartedly disagree. Force breaking is not the basis for all training...
 
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If you have been accepted by your britt as the alpha dog, he should retrieve for you if he knows what you want him to do. The trick is to teach him what you want. Always trained at 8 weeks so cannot give good advice. However, if you know someone with a dog that likes to retrieve (doesn't have to be a hunting dog), he may see what you want by watching the other dog. Worth a try; britts are eager to please. It is a good sign your dog is bringing you dead things.
 
Tell that to the best trainers in the U.S. and they will disagree with you. Mike Lardy quote "Force-Fetch is the foundation for modern training programs".

John and Amy Dahl "Force-fetching is the process of making a dog absolutely reliable in its bird/dummy handling and delivery. It converts retrieving from a matter of play to a matter of obedience. It provides a foundation of confidence for advanced training--no matter how confusing or stressful a situation, the dog knows that going when sent is the right thing to do. This confidence is the basis of greater style and intensity than is possible in any play-retrieve."
 
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See, Dottie? Lots of different ways to modify the pup's behavior exist.

By the way, the last two dogs I've had were Young Bert, the not-right dog, and Mick, the new, used, dog. Young Bert was a two and one half year old German Wirehaired Pointer with NO training, and Mick is a Field English Springer Spaniel who I got when he was five or six years old, who seemed to have been a yard dog. There was no evidence of field training to speak of in terms of hunting.

I had YB for nine years, and am currently in my sixth year of co-existing with Mick. I try to only make comments based on my own experience, but both dogs seemed to like the attention, to want to play and please me when we trained. They seemed to (apparently) enjoy figuring out what I wanted and then have fun when they worked it out.They would get excited when I took the quail/pheasant/pheasant wing out of the freezer. Dogs like knowing what to do.


Take your time; insist on each behavior when you train; make sure you can enforce each behavior you request (kitchen training--I'm not chasing any dog. :) ); stop if you find yourself getting angry or frustrated; take some time every now and then to go through the list of commands (although, uh...Young Bert, the smartass, got accustomed to that ritual and when instructed only to "Sit," would sit, then lie down, then roll over, then sit again and extend a paw to shake. :) )

and...don't fret. This is FUN for the pup and for you, if you let it be.

Best wishes.
 
There are a lot of good dvd's out there on dog training that are a great help. I have the Fowl Dogs dvd that I reference a lot plus a couple of others for my Labradors. I also use the Lardy manual and dvd. Lots of good ones out there for pointing dogs as well.

The dvd's will give you a look at how to do things in an actual training scenario. The dog training forum on here is much like the parents of the high school kids I coach. Every parent believes they are a basketball coach and a basketball referee just like everyone on here is a professional trainer with the best hunting dog in the world.
 
Remove the toys from the equation. Set aside time for fetch/play with just the bumpers with the wings attached. Dont let him play fetch with anything but what has value to you, it will then have value to him
 
HA, I agree with both FCspringers and WestKSBowhunter.

Our breed of dogs, like many, are pretty natural retrievers. So I would say No, you dont HAVE to Force Fetch. But, Munsters being a very independent thinking dog, we chose to FF to make sure that it is understood that fetch means do it and do it now and correctly. You dont train all summer for your only test of the year, only to have the dog decide that it isnt interested in being the warm fuzzy compliant buddy that hangs out with you at home on the couch.:p

I also do think it builds a different relationship with the dog than what you had before the FF training. This will roll nicely in to obedience. BUT, this is a positive relationship ONLY if the training was done with all effort possible to be fair to the dog. If you go at it as a "Kick Arse" FF session, you have already lost.

So, perhaps the problem lies with the term "FORCE Fetch" maybe that is where people get ruffled feathers? Trained retrieve may be better used in todays world where, as trainers, we have evolved from the rough handling of old times?
 
Skeet Mc said:
Remove the toys from the equation. Set aside time for fetch/play with just the bumpers with the wings attached. Dont let him play fetch with anything but what has value to you, it will then have value to him
Click to expand...

I agree except I would eliminate wings altogether. That seems to be the problem. If he is unwilling to force fetch he is at least going to have to teach the hold command. Starting with a leather glove, then dowel, then dummy, then frozen bird, then live bird. From a stationary position first then get the dog moving and holding through obedience.

I suspect the problem was created by the trainer and not the fault of the dog. Personally I really don't know of any professional trainer or good amateur trainer who uses wings. There simply is no substitute for live and freshly killed birds. In the dogs eyes I am sure wings are viewed as a toy.

The fowl dogs dvd has an excellent session on teaching hold that would benefit any breed of dog.
 
Cut a piece of two by four about the size of a retrieving bumper. Using those large fencing u-shaped nails, attach a wing to both sides of the block of wood. Leave the top of the nail protruding about 1/2 inch out of the wood. Your britt will not want to bite down hard on the dull side of the nail.

Start this when you have the complete attention of your dog in in enclosed area. Two year old britts are a little goofy. You will have to do this religiously. Gradually work your way outdoors.

This block of wood/wings is easier to use than a frozen bird (no freezer req.). I save my frozen quail til it is close to hunting season.
 
mstand said:
HA, I agree with both FCspringers and WestKSBowhunter.

Our breed of dogs, like many, are pretty natural retrievers. So I would say No, you dont HAVE to Force Fetch. But, Munsters being a very independent thinking dog, we chose to FF to make sure that it is understood that fetch means do it and do it now and correctly. You dont train all summer for your only test of the year, only to have the dog decide that it isnt interested in being the warm fuzzy compliant buddy that hangs out with you at home on the couch.:p

I also do think it builds a different relationship with the dog than what you had before the FF training. This will roll nicely in to obedience. BUT, this is a positive relationship ONLY if the training was done with all effort possible to be fair to the dog. If you go at it as a "Kick Arse" FF session, you have already lost.

So, perhaps the problem lies with the term "FORCE Fetch" maybe that is where people get ruffled feathers? Trained retrieve may be better used in todays world where, as trainers, we have evolved from the rough handling of old times?
Click to expand...

What a crazy day. I agree with mstand.... Must be a full moon! Cheers
 
I applaud you for breeding the desired traits we all want in our hunting dogs. 9 out of 10 dogs that are bred probably shouldn't be. But that doesn't help Dottie now does it? As far as why retriever trainers force fetch their dogs, your missing the point or just don't want to accept it as the foundation for how we train our dogs. It is the foundation for how I train (maybe not you) and the majority of the great trainers in the nation who train retrievers. We all have our methods and the important thing is that we take the time to develop our dogs regardless of how we do it. But challenging someone elses training methods doesn't help anyone, which is exactly what you did with your quote "I don't have to use force with any of my dogs, ever. Oh and with all due respect, I whole heartedly disagree. Force breaking is not the basis for all training... " You simply could have just posted a response to Dottie and not got on your "Anti Force Fetch Crusade".
 
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