Breed Pairs?

G

get'EM'up

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Sad New Year as the ringneck season in most states is closing or will be within a week or so. I recently joined the group for the purpose of asking this question, but before I do here is a little backstory: I am a 32-year-old teacher/Athletic Director in North Central Iowa. I had the good fortune to grow up pheasant hunting with my father behind his natural talent and luckly purchased pointing yellow lab (bought for $30 in the early 90's). Four summers ago I happened across a craigslist post for a German Shorthair Pointer (GSP) pup that was an accidental litter. Long story short, I bought my pup, GSP training books and DVD's and got to work nurturing out a bird dog. Three seasons later I am proud to say she is one of the best little GSP's (or any breed for that matter) I've ever seen work the field, find sent, point birds, and flush on command. But all true pheasant hunters know there is a critical part missing... the retrieve.
I have spent days worth of time working with her and she will return dead birds but does not relentlessly work to find them once downed. she quickly loses focus and takes to hunting vs retrieving.
Now, I'd gladly take tips from seasoned GSP trainers on what I might do, but my question isn't after tips on training, instead it is this:

Do any of you know of/have experience is pairing off breed dog teams? what I am looking for is a methodical working retriever who's flush drive can be halted on command without excessive verbal commands, and will aggressively locate, track, and retrieve downed birds.

If you've read this far, thanks, if you have any information, thank you more!
 
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I'm sure it could be done, probably easily by a good trainer. But I would be worried about the retriever pouting or holding a grudge when he never gets to finish anything. I mean theres going to be some competition there. I think the chances of you getting a dog that doesnt perform up to your standards or washes out are pretty high. I would look at getting a pointing lab with strong backing instinct in his breeding or better yet another shorthair with strong retrieving instincts. JMO
 
I've thought about a second GSP, and my current dogs hunts at a new level when there is competition, but I've something draws me to the idea of having "specialist". I've kicked around the idea of a German Wirehair Pointer (GWP) or a Wirehair Pointing Griffon (WPG). The relatively lesser known/used element of those two dogs scare me back towards Labs but I don't know if their aggressive hunting/flushing style would mesh well with a GSP...
 
I have always had a close working britt and a wide ranging britt. Close dog is like my personal assistant. Always the best retriever because she likes to hang out with me as much as she likes hunting. I would go a whole hunting season without losing a single wounded bird with one of these close working britts.

I had to retire my close working britt before the season. Far britt, now 9 yo, too impatient to look for dead bird. Never asked her to do that. Lost a wounded rooster this week. It's nice to have dogs who love their particular jobs.

I am now looking for a close working britt or maybe a pointing lab.
 
Chessies, British Labs, Flatcoats, Boykins, Water spaniels, and even show springers have probably all been used as "plantation" retrievers. But if your going to use your second dog as a flusher I think you will need some separation or your retriever will hit the same scent as your pointing dog and want to bust the point.
 
To the OP... it is possible to have a retriever with, walking at a heel, waiting to retrieve. Or even hunted together if kept from busting in on the points. But that's a lot to keep track of for even the best trainers/handlers, and it may diminish the quality of your hunting experience.

Does your GSP have any retrieving desire? Bumpers? Tennis balls? If so, FF is an option. If you don't want that, I would suggest pairing with another pointer. A GSP could work if you like the breed. Just find a breeder who breeds for a natural retrieve in their line of GSPs.
 
mnaj_springer,
My GSP is trained to freeze on the "hold" command. This does a few things for me: #1 if she is on a false point when I say "hold" she will look back at me without walking. #2 If she is on true point it aligns the action with a verbal command that she gets praised for (in training with love/treats and in the field with the hunt and love after the action) and #3 When she is getting overly excited of encroaching on another dog point it acts like a "whoa" command.
I am confident if the second dogs (breeds) temperament would allow for a trained "hold" even when they want to flush I could pair them without too much handling problems (or course after a decent amount of training and in field work).

To answer your questions, yes she loves to play fetch with tennis balls, bumpers, toys, socks, dead birds, sticks... I've looked into FF but I believe her temperament is way to soft to handle that style of training, and I'd be really concerned I would sour hunting, which she does at a VERY high caliber.

Another GSP could work, but of the dozen or more GSP I have hunted over, none hunt (find and point birds) as well as my current GSP, and none retrieve (track and dig out wild roosters) like what I have seen out of "average" labs. Leading to me think I will at likely have a competing dog in the field driving up the level of competition of my original dog. Thought?
 
The competition could be a positive but it can also lead the dog to perform poorly and take out birds rather than point.

As far as a soft dog and FFing. I have 2 soft dogs and both took to FF just fine.
 
I did the FF myself, along with all other training. The dog work is more fun, in my opinion, than the actual bagging of birds, although that's a close second. The method I used for FF involves more praise than correction.
 
I too appreciate the dog work more than the hunting... well I like watching my dog work and do well in the field most! Where did you get your info on the methodology? A book title to links would be awesome! Thanks a bunch!
 
mnaj_springer said:
I did the FF myself, along with all other training. The dog work is more fun, in my opinion, than the actual bagging of birds, although that's a close second. The method I used for FF involves more praise than correction.
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I wish more people understood this. I think all currant and effective FF involves more praise and less correction. The old days of using a bottle cap or pliers are long gone thankfully. Honestly when I FF after a couple sessions the dogs run to the table in anticipation. Now if a dog has poor obedience it's a totally different story the fight trying to get the dog to sit and behave himself overshadows the entire experience. I've only FF'ed one dog that I didn't do the basic obedience on. We got through it (kind of) but both the dog and I had sour attitudes and the results were poor.
 
get'EM'up said:
I too appreciate the dog work more than the hunting... well I like watching my dog work and do well in the field most! Where did you get your info on the methodology? A book title to links would be awesome! Thanks a bunch!
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Take a look at Bill Hillmans newest puppy DVD's. He has a lot of stuff on YouTube that gives you an idea what he does. I followed his latest puppy DVD and then followed up with traditional ear pinch on the table. I did the ear pinch as much for my confidence as the dogs. The only problem with Hillmans method in my opinion is if you have a pup with little to no desire to retrieve how do you get started? Luckily I've never had pup like that.
 
get'EM'up said:
I too appreciate the dog work more than the hunting... well I like watching my dog work and do well in the field most! Where did you get your info on the methodology? A book title to links would be awesome! Thanks a bunch!
Click to expand...

Well the issue is the method I use is imbedded in a book for training spaniels (although the FF was effective for my Pointer), and I doubt you'd want to buy the whole book so you'd have to look into it at your local library or borrow it from someone... but the book is "Hup: Training Spaniels the American Way" by James Spencer. It's not his method (none of the book is in fact) but the FF method he describes was originally developed for pointers.
 
mnaj_springer said:
Well the issue is the method I use is imbedded in a book for training spaniels (although the FF was effective for my Pointer), and I doubt you'd want to buy the whole book so you'd have to look into it at your local library or borrow it from someone... but the book is "Hup: Training Spaniels the American Way" by James Spencer. It's not his method (none of the book is in fact) but the FF method he describes was originally developed for pointers.
Click to expand...

I used this method training my springer and it worked really well.
 
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