Best Bird Dog Training Books

daniel77

daniel77

New member
Hello all. I'm a newbie, both here, and to the world of pointing dogs. I've decided to throw my hat in the ring and have an English Setter puppy reserved in an upcoming litter. We'll also be adding a lab to the family at some point this year (duck dog, not necessarily for a pointing lab, although I do intend to use it for upland). We should be getting the setter puppy in early March or so.
I am a professional horse trainer and have trained several dogs in multiple styles from cow work to retrieving, and even a small bit of Schutzund, so I am comfortable training this pointer myself. I'm just in need of some direction and a good overview. I've done the obligatory search and found several recommendations in various threads, ("Gun Dog" is wonderful, Wolters is outdated, etc.) but I thought a thread dedicated just to training books would be a good addition to the forum, so here it is. What are ya'lls favorite books, or possibly videos, on bird dogs, and why? Please give a brief summary of what the book covers and possibly what it doesn't. Thanks:cheers:

Daniel
 
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THe updated DVDs of Wolter's stuff from "Mid Carolina Media" are great, in my opinion. They have updated some things that are not in the original books (forced hold/fetch, for example) and for the most part you don't need a lot of equipment or resources to imitate what they are doing. Not sure about pointers though, but great resource for the flushing lab owner. I only wish I'd had it when she was a pup, because it's really set up to take you through what you should work on and what you can expect at various ages. I've tried a few others, including "Tarrant trains guns dogs" (book) and "The 10 minute retriever", neither of which I liked. The first was too lovey-dovey and the second was too harsh (for me anyways).
-Croc
 
Wolters wrote in a way that engendered a lot of enthusiasm from his readers. At the time (early 60â??s) there was no one else like him and he taught the average hunter a method of training a pretty good â??meat dogâ?�. He was later instrumental (although very controversial) in the development of the Hunt test venues that are so popular today. Most people who participate in those venues today consider much of what Wolters wrote to be outdated at best.

Itâ??s been several years since Iâ??ve read his books and my interest was in retrievers but some of the things he promoted that are no longer considered accurate/relevant include:

â?¢ The importance of getting a pup at 49 days.

â?¢ The horror of e-collars (shock collars to him).

â?¢ Training to a time schedule.

â?¢ Every dog needs to get a good beating on occasion.

â?¢ Donâ??t use food treats.

â?¢ Use a mowed path for double T drill. (Waterdog)

â?¢ Use a double whistle for â??overâ?� casts. (Waterdog)

â?¢ Bird wing on a fishing pole. (Gundog)

If I took the time to re-read his books Iâ??m sure Iâ??d find more things that no successful trainers follow these days. I happen to think George Hickox has the best approach that Iâ??ve seen but there are lots of resources that are far better than Wolters.
 
I don't know enough to know why some of those things are might be considered outdated, while others I can see why. Anyways, I'm not posting to debate any of them, just to say that some of them have been addressed in the new DVDs (e-collars are in, beatings are out, double-whistle over casts are out, mowed double-T is still in, just off the top of my head).
-Croc
 
Bass Pro has some really good dvd's on training young pointers, i think they range 15 to 40 dollars. i got one of the 15 dollar ones and was very pleased. cant remember which one it was, i think my buddy has it and he's the fourth or fifth person i have loaned it too!
 
Dvd

donnie_19 said:
Look at the George Hickox DVD's.
Click to expand...

The George Hickox DVD is good. It is a start to finish DVD, intro to birds and guns, holding point, hunting in range, whoa, backing......even goes on to steady to wing and shot. It also briefly hits ont force fetch. I am not going to tell you it is the best DVD ever, but I do not think you could go wrong with it.
 
training

so is the hickox a good basic training starting point and i guess it works for any type of dog and are his training techniques easily understood and easy to use.
 
Yes he will tell you what he is going to do, then show you what he means using a dog, then talk about it a little more. I have had his DVD for 2 or 3 years, I find myself referenceing it everytime I start something new with a dog.
 
thanks

ok thanks for the info will have to try to get my hands on those dvd's, going to look at picking up a gwp pup friday. Good information at just the right time.
 
birdshooter said:
As far as books go anything by Delmar Smith/Bill Tarrant for pointing breeds.

Vids, IMO there are none more detailed and easy to follow than Perfect Start/Perfect Finish for pointing breeds. I have them and they worth the price.

http://www.perfectionkennel.com/video_series.htm
Click to expand...

I bought A Perfect Start 3 weeks ago. I have a 12 week old pup that I am working on come and retrieving in the house. I havent watched the whole video yet, but I will after hunting season is over. Now I just have to find somewhere to train in the spring.

I trained my older GSP without live birds and I think it kind of stunted her growth. She is a very intelligent dog, but had I been able to get her on live birds when she was a pup, I think she would've been something special. I'm not giving up on her though, I'm going to put her through the same regiment as the pup this next spring/summer, by using the "Perfect Start", methods.

Hope it works, my main goal between now and 40 degrees with little snow is finding a good place to train. Anyone from Central Iowa know of anywhere?
 
I bet with your background you'll do well regardless. You asked about Hickox. Unless something has changed in his methods, he uses an e-collar for training. Not training the behavior and then layering over the e-collar, but introducing the behavior and training with the e-collar. If this is still what he pushes that can work, but is tricky business IMO, and with a setter in particular I might lean towards another method.

The Delmar/Smith brothers stuff is pretty good. Tarrant's book is a good read just by itself and as a horse guy you may really enjoy it's ties to Delmar's horse background. The brothers have video series that are pretty good. They have updated their dads (Delmar) methods and keep it pretty low pressure. Their books and videos are widely available.

I've become a big fan of the Bill West/Bill Gibbons/Dave Walker type training, which is very low pressure using a pinch collar to train first and then progressign to an e-collar, and IMO finishes dogs without taking any style out of them. Dave Walker has a real good book available on his web site (davewalkerdogs.com) and a few retailers carry it as well. He has videos available on his web site, and West/Gibbons have some videos available on one of their protege's sites, higginsgundogs.com Another protege, Maurice Lindley, is slated to have a book out any day now as well.

Joan Bailey (How to have the best trained gun dog) and Mark Payton (Favorite ways to train your bird dog see it at reliableretrieving.com) both have books out that I have yet to read but am sure are very good based on knowledge of other products they have had out there over the years.
 
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I bet with your background you'll do well regardless. You asked about Hickox. Unless something has changed in his methods, he uses an e-collar for training. Not training the behavior and then layering over the e-collar, but introducing the behavior and training with the e-collar. If this is still what he pushes that can work, but is tricky business IMO, and with a setter in particular I might lean towards another method.

The Delmar/Smith brothers stuff is pretty good. Tarrant's book is a good read just by itself and as a horse guy you may really enjoy it's ties to Delmar's horse background. The brothers have video series that are pretty good. They have updated their dads (Delmar) methods and keep it pretty low pressure. Their books and videos are widely available.

I've become a big fan of the Bill West/Bill Gibbons/Dave Walker type training, which is very low pressure using a pinch collar to train first and then progressign to an e-collar, and IMO finishes dogs without taking any style out of them. Dave Walker has a real good book available on his web site (davewalkerdogs.com) and a few retailers carry it as well. He has videos available on his web site, and West/Gibbons have some videos available on one of their protege's sites, higginsgundogs.com Another protege, Maurice Lindley, is slated to have a book out any day know as well.

Joan Bailey (How to have the best trained gun dog) and Mark Payton (Favorite ways to train your bird dog) both have books out that I have yet to read but am sure are very good based on knowledge of other products they have had out there over the years.
 
Don't go on buying those books without looking at Youtube first. Why spend if you can get the information for free.
 
Dave Walker's and Delmar Smith's books/videos are among the tops for most folks programs IMHO.

NB
 
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