Goosemaster
Well-known member
Yes, you can cross private land, but do it quickly.
Corner crossings
- Thread starter Bob Peters
- Start date
cheesy
Well-known member
The multiple MeatEater podcasts covering this are quite enlightening. In Wyoming, where the case being tried is, there was nothing on the books about corner crossing, but as somebody else mentioned, it was frowned upon by the game warden and sheriffs deputies just to avoid conflict. The problem is, conflict avoidance is not law.
Then you throw the big money private landowner from back east into the mix, and he becomes the greasy wheel to mess with the hunters that crossed at the fence. He said the ladder they used impeded his airspace, so he had his 'ranch-hands' put up posts on his ground and connect them with chain and 'no-trespassing' signs that crossed the corner. So the ladder was impeding his airspace, but the chain and sign wasn't impeding the public ground airspace?
Can't wait to see how the civil trial goes. The only thing he has to stand on is that allowing corner crossing reduces the value of his private property (but he won't say that the reduction is because the thousands upon thousands of acres of public ground he loses that was effectively his personal playground). I'm all for private property rights, but corner crossing should not be illegal.
In wyoming, all that checkerboard white/yellow area, all the yellow is BLM ground, each square is a square mile, and unless it has a public road going through it (not very much of it does), you can't set foot on it, even through you as a citizen 'own' it.
Then you throw the big money private landowner from back east into the mix, and he becomes the greasy wheel to mess with the hunters that crossed at the fence. He said the ladder they used impeded his airspace, so he had his 'ranch-hands' put up posts on his ground and connect them with chain and 'no-trespassing' signs that crossed the corner. So the ladder was impeding his airspace, but the chain and sign wasn't impeding the public ground airspace?
Can't wait to see how the civil trial goes. The only thing he has to stand on is that allowing corner crossing reduces the value of his private property (but he won't say that the reduction is because the thousands upon thousands of acres of public ground he loses that was effectively his personal playground). I'm all for private property rights, but corner crossing should not be illegal.
In wyoming, all that checkerboard white/yellow area, all the yellow is BLM ground, each square is a square mile, and unless it has a public road going through it (not very much of it does), you can't set foot on it, even through you as a citizen 'own' it.
Goosemaster
Well-known member
I hunt a place in Montana that involves crossing several acres of land that is locked up.Im not too worried about it anyway.
BritChaser
Well-known member
I hope the WY landowner loses her/his/its trespass case against the hunters.
Need to stay clear of you!Alls I know Golden Huor is if it's my land you want to tresspass on you better get pretty good at balancing on that middle fence post. I could care less if youre after phezz, deer, gopher, or what the hell. Illegal is illegal brother.
gim
Well-known member
The US Court of Appeals in Denver, CO has upheld the ruling in this Wyoming corner crossing case today. They sided with the original lower court's ruling, stating that private landowners (in this case, Iron Bar Ranch) do not own the airspace above their property. The four hunters from the original incident have prevailed.
This is a major victory for hunters, and public land hunters in this country. Thousands of acres of federal land will remain open to public hunting, provided the public does not physically step on private land when accessing corner crossings of parceled land.
This is a major victory for hunters, and public land hunters in this country. Thousands of acres of federal land will remain open to public hunting, provided the public does not physically step on private land when accessing corner crossings of parceled land.
Goosemaster
Well-known member
If I was going to get busted by this guy, it would have happened 30 years ago. He doesn't care. It's out in the middle of nowhere.
Goosemaster
Well-known member
Yeah I've got some land in Florida that you can buy from me...
Wind River
Well-known member
Goose, do you still have that swamp land I sold you last year? Did the taxes go up?
gim
Well-known member
Iron Bar Ranch could appeal to the Supreme Court. But unlike the Appeals Court, the Supreme Court does not have to hear a case. They could take it, but they could also just decline too. In fact, most cases rarely reach the SC because they just don't have the time to hear it, or they simply agree with the lower courts rulings. My guess is that they wouldn't even consider hearing it should Iron Bar Ranch request it.
I failed to mention that the ruling only applies in 6 states for now because that is where the Court of Appeals in this case ruled. However, it will set a precedent across the entire country now too. While most of these vast, federal lands in a checkerboard pattern primarily exist in the west, the case precedent will apply to the entire country, in theory.
I failed to mention that the ruling only applies in 6 states for now because that is where the Court of Appeals in this case ruled. However, it will set a precedent across the entire country now too. While most of these vast, federal lands in a checkerboard pattern primarily exist in the west, the case precedent will apply to the entire country, in theory.
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How could you own the air space above your land. If you own land by an airport and you got tired of planes coming over you could make the airport change the runways so they dont go over your air space. WTF If you dont touch their property, I say you are good. I suppose now they will put razor wire on their corners.
gim
Well-known member
I think most of us outdoorsmen would agree with you on this pretty blatantly. However, it's not as cut and dry as we might think it is. Which is why it ended up where it did. I'm not a landowner other than my own homestead and it's likely I'll never be, so it's difficult to put my feet in those shoes. There's usually two sides to a story.
Regardless, there is a rule of law in this country that is often open to interpretation by the courts. That is their job. Rulings stand.
This is a crucial point. The corner at question in this case was a surveyed corner with a marker. One of the hunters is a fence builder in real life, and thus is familiar with surveying, corner markers, etc. He had also built a ladder-like contraption to span the corner, allowing them a little more "breathing room" when making the crossing. Iron Bar never asserted that these hunters stepped onto its ground, only that they had passed through the airspace. Finding the actual corner and accurately knowing path of the boundaries creates a pretty high bar for "staying legal". All of a sudden those corner markers that few us have seen or noticed are really important. OnX or any GPS device/service isn't accurate enough if you truly want to stay legal. There will be lots of activity out there about those corner markers. Regardless, it's still a victory for public access.
It's a little like the '08 Heller case at the Supreme Court, which first declared that the 2nd amendment protected the rights of individuals. That case was pretty narrow, but it paved the way for the '10 MacDonald case which extended the 2nd amendment's provisions to state and local law. There have been other cases as well that further clarified the situation. There will be more cases to come about corner crossing. What about a "good faith" protection? What about shooting from public to public, but across private? What about damage, eg, erosion, to adjoining private property because of traffic at popular corner? What about unmarked corners, ie, corners of QUARTERS that aren't also corners of SECTIONS?
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Could a landowner put, say, a 10ft or higher fence just on the last few feet of a corner, making it much more difficult for a ladder to be used? If these landowners were pissed enough take it this far in court, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried some more shenanigans.
Bob Peters
Well-known member
Three spot in iowa why I posted this thread. Dickcissel. Used to, you could corner cross, then I'm guessing the fed put up a big fence there. Maybe around most of the spot I can't remember now, been a few years.
cyclonenation10
Well-known member
If you send me the coordinates I can go check it out for you
BRITTMAN
Well-known member
I believe corner crossing is generally illegal in most states.
In Minnesota I would bet if a landowner called you in you would likely get a ticket. You then hire a good attorney and proceed down the same path as Wyoming case with precedence on your side.
The Wyoming case may have went through Federal courts because the public land was Federal land.
In Minnesota I would bet if a landowner called you in you would likely get a ticket. You then hire a good attorney and proceed down the same path as Wyoming case with precedence on your side.
The Wyoming case may have went through Federal courts because the public land was Federal land.
It was thought to be illegal in Wyoming too until this case.
The criminal case, which was decided a couple years ago maybe, was state court. That verdict was "not guilty." The court of appeals decision arose from a lawsuit brought by Iron Bar against the hunters for devaluing the Iron Bar property. IIRC, the case was filed in Wyoming state court, but somewhere in the process it was transferred to federal court. Meateater has covered this extensively: one episode with some of the hunters and another with one of the attorneys representing them, and many updates as the court cases proceeded. Also several written pieces.