How young’s too young?

Skadergen

Skadergen

Member
Ok so I’m well aware, I I’m about 98% premature with this question, (so this is just for off season conversation) but if your pups too young to be up to speed, in October, is it bad to have them out during season if their not gun shy?

As a bck story, the pup I’m in line for for a pup who should be born at the beginning of March, so should be getting it in may. While I’m about 98% sure it won’t be close to an efficient or effective hunter in mid October, I can’t see how it would mess it up(as long as I get it properly introduced to gun fire). Essentially this should be a 7.5 month pup, I think I would definitely stay away on opening weekend. But cant think the hun would be much different than training. Am I way off?
 
I do hunt try to pheasant hunt them a few times that first year but I try get them out on the slam dunks and not the long walks. I’m afraid they will get injured while they are still growing. It’s not worth it the risk to me . I maybe over cautious but hip or growth plate injuries are for life.
 
If you think that hunting and training aren't much different then I suggest joining a club or seeking advice from a pro because they are much different. My expectations are different than most in that I have high expectations for my dogs so I put them through a gun dog program before taking them to the field. Which is generally a 3 month program which you begin at 6 months for retrievers. Once through a gun dog program, I never hunt them with others until they have several hunts under their belt. Taking a dog hunting before basic obedience only leads to an uncontrollable dog. Letting a dog pick up a cripple or dead birds that is inexperienced will lead to a dog that rolls birds, is hard mouthed, etc. I have been around hunters for the last 50 years that claim they have wonderful dogs and to them they are. But they don't really understand what a well trained dog is.

Dogs are not born gun shy, they are made gun shy by their owners.
 
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What kind of dog? Not sure about other but I have taken both my setters at 6 months. The dog I have now I took to sd 3 times the first season. We started out at dare I say it a hunting club. Actually I first trained her to the gun. We walk off leash several miles each day. Then I took her to the hunting club. We also worked on woodcock which really hold well for a pointing dog. Then we did sd once in October November and December. By the end of the first year she was pointing solid, staying in the range I wanted and locating and retrieving. She was not finished or polished as some would say. Just a great all around hunting dog.
 
Skadergen said:
Ok so I’m well aware, I I’m about 98% premature with this question, (so this is just for off season conversation) but if your pups too young to be up to speed, in October, is it bad to have them out during season if their not gun shy?

As a bck story, the pup I’m in line for for a pup who should be born at the beginning of March, so should be getting it in may. While I’m about 98% sure it won’t be close to an efficient or effective hunter in mid October, I can’t see how it would mess it up(as long as I get it properly introduced to gun fire). Essentially this should be a 7.5 month pup, I think I would definitely stay away on opening weekend. But cant think the hun would be much different than training. Am I way off?
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You might not mess up your pup but it sure can mess up your hunt! I'm kind of kidding but if you don't expect too much from your pup, you won't be disappointed. I've been very pleased with 6-month-old dogs and very displeased with two-year-olds. One setter never hunted a lick until he was 4 years old. Like it's been said above, don't take your pup out with a bunch of guys for its sake and your buddies. At 7.5 months you should have your pup on its way so if it was mine, I would absolutely take it. But you need to have put it in a lot of tame birds first. Mrben above did exactly what I would have done. His pup has the correct genes, and he set his pup up for success. Westksbowhunter also has a point. He is setting his pups up for a sure thing for success. If nothing else, it will be good experience as in learning how to behave on a trip and firing up its prey drive on wild birds. Just keep in mind that a wild untrained dog will most likely ruin your buddy's trip. Nothing like spending your only vacation of the year watching birds being flushed at 500 yards. I've been there. :LOL:
 
I do like the timing , mine should be just a few weeks younger. IMO a 7 or 8 month old dog is easier to deal with than an 11 month old dog. Like bird dude said light the fire.
 
westksbowhunter said:
If you think that hunting and training aren't much different then I suggest joining a club or seeking advice from a pro because they are much different. My expectations are different than most in that I have high expectations for my dogs so I put them through a gun dog program before taking them to the field. Which is generally a 3 month program which you begin at 6 months for retrievers. Once through a gun dog program, I never hunt them with others until they have several hunts under their belt. Taking a dog hunting before basic obedience only leads to an uncontrollable dog. Letting a dog pick up a cripple or dead birds that is inexperienced will lead to a dog that rolls birds, is hard mouthed, etc. I have been around hunters for the last 50 years that claim they have wonderful dogs and to them they are. But they don't really understand what a well trained dog is.

Dogs are not born gun shy, they are made gun shy by their owners.
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Appreciate the help sir. Didn’t mean to to imply I thought they were the same. Not afraid of investing time, and $ in a good collar, remote launchers, and pigeon to ensure success. Will not have an issue getting and using any check leads, wonder leads. As a matter of fact, getting 4x4,s 2x4’s and supplies to build my 12ft table this weekend(I know Rick & Ronnie promote 14’) Will make sure it’s ready for gunfire, I have confidence if I follow a program I should have a decent bird dog.

I also understand if I try to shortcut any training or reinvent any program, I will have destroyed the pups opportunity to be good. In the middle of one of the Smith’s books now and have a couple of their videos as well.

Where I was going with the last part, was if I’m in the training fields( there is a state park near me that allows training) with remote launchers in august, and in private grounds in September, I would think October pheasants would be ok, as long as she was on a solid path up to it. Didn’t want to wait until 2027 to get it on pheasants.
 
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Mrben said:
What kind of dog? Not sure about other but I have taken both my setters at 6 months. The dog I have now I took to sd 3 times the first season. We started out at dare I say it a hunting club. Actually I first trained her to the gun. We walk off leash several miles each day. Then I took her to the hunting club. We also worked on woodcock which really hold well for a pointing dog. Then we did sd once in October November and December. By the end of the first year she was pointing solid, staying in the range I wanted and locating and retrieving. She was not finished or polished as some would say. Just a great all around hunting dog.
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Brittany, the breeder only raises Brittany’s and has been breading and training bird dogs for 35 years and uses the smith method(which is what I’m learning and plan to use). He will finish dogs, I just kind of want to do it myself.

I’m not aware of any dog clubs lose to me(except a beagle club) but within 1 hour there is 3 -4 state hunting grounds which allow dog training.
 
birddude said:
You might not mess up your pup but it sure can mess up your hunt! I'm kind of kidding but if you don't expect too much from your pup, you won't be disappointed. I've been very pleased with 6-month-old dogs and very displeased with two-year-olds. One setter never hunted a lick until he was 4 years old. Like it's been said above, don't take your pup out with a bunch of guys for its sake and your buddies. At 7.5 months you should have your pup on its way so if it was mine, I would absolutely take it. But you need to have put it in a lot of tame birds first. Mrben above did exactly what I would have done. His pup has the correct genes, and he set his pup up for success. Westksbowhunter also has a point. He is setting his pups up for a sure thing for success. If nothing else, it will be good experience as in learning how to behave on a trip and firing up its prey drive on wild birds. Just keep in mind that a wild untrained dog will most likely ruin your buddy's trip. Nothing like spending your only vacation of the year watching birds being flushed at 500 yards. I've been there. :LOL:
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Thanks for the tips. This gives me hope and confidence, don’t expect anything from me to ever be polished😂 but decent, I think I can manage! As far as ruining my hunt… I hunted this last year without a dog.

Also, what is this “Buddies” thing you speak of? Is that similar to what others talk about when they use “Friends” 😂. Honestly I travel a bit for work or just stay in my office. The good news is my wife has really been my best friend and she is just as excited about developing a bird dog. While she has no desire to shoot birds, she is jacked to walk and bird hunt with me and watch the dog work. She has surprisingly been engulfed in pheasant hunting videos with me. So in the end not sure the pup would ruin any hunt for me. Old enough to enjoy the hunt and while killing game isn’t the end goal for me, would want to harvest every bird my bird can point, for sure!
 
Skadergen said:
Thanks for the tips. This gives me hope and confidence, don’t expect anything from me to ever be polished😂 but decent, I think I can manage! As far as ruining my hunt… I hunted this last year without a dog.

Also, what is this “Buddies” thing you speak of? Is that similar to what others talk about when they use “Friends” 😂. Honestly I travel a bit for work or just stay in my office. The good news is my wife has really been my best friend and she is just as excited about developing a bird dog. While she has no desire to shoot birds, she is jacked to walk and bird hunt with me and watch the dog work. She has surprisingly been engulfed in pheasant hunting videos with me. So in the end not sure the pup would ruin any hunt for me. Old enough to enjoy the hunt and while killing game isn’t the end goal for me, would want to harvest every bird my bird can point, for sure!
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Cool, it looks to me like you have a pretty good grasp on things. It took me years to get the grasp you already have. I was probably 15 years in before I realized that patience, training and exposer makes a much better dog than the borderline abuse that the old-timers had preached to me.
 
Skadergen said:
Appreciate the help sir. Didn’t mean to to imply I thought they were the same. Not afraid of investing time, and $ in a good collar, remote launchers, and pigeon to ensure success. Will not have an issue getting and using any check leads, wonder leads. As a matter of fact, getting 4x4,s 2x4’s and supplies to build my 12ft table this weekend(I know Rick & Ronnie promote 14’) Will make sure it’s ready for gunfire, I have confidence if I follow a program I should have a decent bird dog.

I also understand if I try to shortcut any training or reinvent any program, I will have destroyed the pups opportunity to be good. In the middle of one of the Smith’s books now and have a couple of their videos as well.

Where I was going with the last part, was if I’m in the training fields( there is a state park near me that allows training) with remote launchers in august, and in private grounds in September, I would think October pheasants would be ok, as long as she was on a solid path up to it. Didn’t want to wait until 2027 to get it on pheasants.
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Back in December, I spent the day with Clay Earl training and working dogs. Some regard him as the best spaniel trainer in the US and Canada. At the very least a top 5 trainer. He and the other top trainers don't even start their dogs now til they are over a year old. Now these are spaniel trainers not pointing dog trainers so maybe the philosophy is different but for spaniels and retrievers the top trainers are going to advice you to wait. Your quote was "But cant think the hun would be much different than training. Am I way off?" So you were definitely asking. Anytime I hear of someone wanting to hunt a 7 month old pup and that they are ready to buy an e collar I just cringe.
 
Going hunting does not mean you have to shoot every bird that comes up.. be ready for the handful of moments in year one where the dog does his job to his current ability. Shoot a bunch of wild flushes and you will gift yourself a flushing dog that should point.
 
westksbowhunter said:
Back in December, I spent the day with Clay Earl training and working dogs. Some regard him as the best spaniel trainer in the US and Canada. At the very least a top 5 trainer. He and the other top trainers don't even start their dogs now til they are over a year old. Now these are spaniel trainers not pointing dog trainers so maybe the philosophy is different but for spaniels and retrievers the top trainers are going to advice you to wait. Your quote was "But cant think the hun would be much different than training. Am I way off?" So you were definitely asking. Anytime I hear of someone wanting to hunt a 7 month old pup and that they are ready to buy an e collar I just cringe.
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Ok sorry I was referring to the field work portion. My tentative idea is, I would like to think, I could get it pointing versus flushing and or bumping birds by then.

I could be way off but my thought process was if I can get it to point a bird in the launcher without creeping, it should be able to point a pheasant without creeping.
 
Quailnerd said:
Going hunting does not mean you have to shoot every bird that comes up.. be ready for the handful of moments in year one where the dog does his job to his current ability. Shoot a bunch of wild flushes and you will gift yourself a flushing dog that should point.
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I’ve read that and completely understand that and can see where that would teach a dog to continue to flush
 
Skadergen said:
Ok sorry I was referring to the field work portion. My tentative idea is, I would like to think, I could get it pointing versus flushing and or bumping birds by then.

I could be way off but my thought process was if I can get it to point a bird in the launcher without creeping, it should be able to point a pheasant without creeping.
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In theory that’s correct, but birds in a launchers don’t move. Pheasants will outwit a seasoned dog and make puppies look foolish, which is exactly why we like them as hunters. Rarely is the situation as predictable as the training field. Heard a quote that a pointing dogs job is to keep game on the ground without you telling him to. Good luck on your adventure
 
Skadergen said:
Ok sorry I was referring to the field work portion. My tentative idea is, I would like to think, I could get it pointing versus flushing and or bumping birds by then.

I could be way off but my thought process was if I can get it to point a bird in the launcher without creeping, it should be able to point a pheasant without creeping.
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From reading your posts, you definitely need to enroll into one of the Smiths Dog Training Seminars. There is a major difference in field work vs hunting. Which you obviously don't understand. At 7 months you are just moving into field work provided your basic obedience and collar conditioning is done which is highly unlikely at 7 months. Your quote "I’ve read that and completely understand that and can see where that would teach a dog to continue to flush" is exactly why I posted that I like to set my dog up for success. You want your dog solid on obedience and solid on pointing pigeons long before taking it to field and introducing it to wild birds. You will be sitting your young pup up for failure not success. Mine are retrievers but they have retrieved hundreds of pigeons, planted pheasants, etc in training before ever going hunting.

I suggest laying out a week to week timeline for your puppy and the goals you want to accomplish along the way. You're getting a puppy so the first steps are crate training, building a bond, and letting that puppy be a puppy. Then bird introductions, gun fire conditioning, obedience introductions, etc. Then going into formal training and a couple of months of shooting birds in the training field. That is a lot for a young puppy before 7 months of age. You set the standard through training so you don't run into problems in the field forming bad habitats which you will never be able to overcome. Good luck.
 
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I have always heard the retriever guys say not to hunt them till at least a year. I think that is because labs have a good chance developing joint problems. Most pointing breeds don’t have that problem. As long as you limit a young dogs time running don’t over do it when they are young. Get the pointing dog gun acclimated and a good recall. Both of which can be done depending on dogs personality as soon as they can see longer distances and are bold in exploring. Waiting is just loosing quality time in the field with your dog. And do your scouting the earlier you get them on birds every time the go hunting the better in my mind.
 
Jpace said:
I have always heard the retriever guys say not to hunt them till at least a year. I think that is because labs have a good chance developing joint problems. Most pointing breeds don’t have that problem. As long as you limit a young dogs time running don’t over do it when they are young. Get the pointing dog gun acclimated and a good recall. Both of which can be done depending on dogs personality as soon as they can see longer distances and are bold in exploring. Waiting is just loosing quality time in the field with your dog. And do your scouting the earlier you get them on birds every time the go hunting the better in my mind.
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It has nothing to do with joint problems. So why would the cocker trainers (who's dogs weigh 20-25 lbs) wait to even begin training at 12 months? Retriever trainers wait because most gundog programs are 3-4 months which usually begins between 6-8 months of age. And many want their dogs finished before hunting which generally takes 8-10 months.
 
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