Sit vs Sit/Stay

outdoorslife89

New member
Stay has been HUGE for us! Thanks for everyone chiming in here!

Its been working out really well and better than I ever imagined in such a short period of time. She will stay for a pretty darn long time too for a 3.5 month pup but I just make sure she complies and then release...changing up the amount of "stay time".

Its worked for on and off leash, her feeding times(this one surprised me the most) and when we retrieve she will wait for my "ok" to release her. I know this is funny but it almost seems like she appreciates the stay command vs just "sit"
 

outdoorslife89

New member
One more thought for you that's worked wonders for me...before you start the more "formal" training sessions, toss a ball or kong or whatever for 5 or 10 minutes for your pup. I do that with mine and it really makes a huge difference - it takes away a good portion of the extra energy that results in them bouncing all over and not concentrating. Once they are just a bit tired, then start your lesson. Try it...
This definitely helps, appreciate it 519vx:thumbsup:
 

jstevens

New member
I have never seen a reason for a 'stay' command. I train a 'sit' or 'down' to be sit or down till I give you another command or release you. I can't see a reason to just give a sit command that you sit till you get tired of it or decide to do something else on your own. Sit or down, 'stay' is implied.
 

jonnyB

New member
I have never seen a reason for a 'stay' command. I train a 'sit' or 'down' to be sit or down till I give you another command or release you. I can't see a reason to just give a sit command that you sit till you get tired of it or decide to do something else on your own. Sit or down, 'stay' is implied.
"never seen a reason"...when coaching the dog to hold a point, stay has been very handy. When I'm heading out the door, and coming right back inside, don't want him to follow, stay has been handy; when opening the crate door, and I don't want the dog to jump out, stay has been handy. When grooming the dog, and I don't want him to jump off the bench, stay has been handy...need I go on?

There are probably other situations - I use it quite often...
 

jstevens

New member
Which one of those situations can't you just tell him to down? My point is that if I tell a sit, it means both, otherwise does sit mean 10 seconds, 20, or till the dog is tired of it. I can down mine in the yard, go get the mail, pick up a leash, feed a horse, he'll still be there. Holding a point is something different to me, that's a whoa.

Everybody has their own ideas, but a sit without a stay implied has little control in my opinion. If I told a 2 year old kid to go to time out, it would be implied that he stayed till I tell him otherwise, that's the same principle to me, and is likely easier for a kid or dog to understand.

I've never groomed a dog on a bench. Everybody has their own opinion, so don't take anything I say personally. I also handle some working dogs (Mals, D Shepherds, etc) when you are in public and put them down, you want them down till told otherwise, which is probably why I like to do it that way. I have often had neighbors pull in the driveway, I can 'sit' or 'down' the dogs for half an hour if I need to. I like to use the same commands for bird dogs. The protection trained dogs are trained an 'out', which means to let go, period. I use the same thing on a bird dog, to teach them to give up the bird on a retrieve. 'Out' command and they drop the bird.

Everybody does things different, years ago I used to use a 'stay' but quit.
 

outdoorslife89

New member
Ill start out with, I don't have the experience that most of you do in regards to gun dog training. However, I will say that since myself and Remi have introduced stay, she has responded so much better to "sit" followed by "stay" or simply "stay" versus just "sit". After one 48 hour period(roughly) of "stay" I was able to walk lets say, about 30 yards from her and she will patiently wait until released. When it was just "sit"...maybe, maybe you could get 10 yards from her, tops and it wouldn't be consistent. This never changed. I am not pushing her as she is young, just seeing what she is responding to and how...whats her demeanor like. She seems poised to "stay". So her range(of waiting patiently) and focus seemed to increase since introducing "stay". I can also now have her "stay" after I throw a dummy and she will wait for the "ok" or go right after it, pending on which I tell her. Prior to this, if you tried to command just "sit", she was going on the retrieve immediately no matter what you wanted her to do. Same thing with her food. Before there was no "staying" after you told her "sit" and even reminded her as much as needed. Now she will "stay" by the bowl and you can walk away, come back and then release her to eat. This is just how Remi is responding. She seems to appreciate it honestly.

I understand its different strokes for different folks and that's why I was looking for feedback, either way and both sides of the debate. Originally, I was going to stick with "sit means stay" because I understood it the same as jstevens is saying and also seen it(the discussion) mentioned elsewhere numerous times. In research it almost seems like a 50/50 split. Some use "stay", some dont.

Sit until otherwise told...it just wasn't working for us that well and since our one night of starting to implement "stay", its been a world of difference. I for one, am extremely glad we went that direction and I do believe for Remi is too as well!

I wouldn't mind seeing this discussion continue...if you all wish. There is some good info here and valid points on both sides. So if you wish...carry on...
 

jonnyB

New member
Ill start out with, I don't have the experience that most of you do in regards to gun dog training. However, I will say that since myself and Remi have introduced stay, she has responded so much better to "sit" followed by "stay" or simply "stay" versus just "sit". After one 48 hour period(roughly) of "stay" I was able to walk lets say, about 30 yards from her and she will patiently wait until released. When it was just "sit"...maybe, maybe you could get 10 yards from her, tops and it wouldn't be consistent. This never changed. I am not pushing her as she is young, just seeing what she is responding to and how...whats her demeanor like. She seems poised to "stay". So her range(of waiting patiently) and focus seemed to increase since introducing "stay". I can also now have her "stay" after I throw a dummy and she will wait for the "ok" or go right after it, pending on which I tell her. Prior to this, if you tried to command just "sit", she was going on the retrieve immediately no matter what you wanted her to do. Same thing with her food. Before there was no "staying" after you told her "sit" and even reminded her as much as needed. Now she will "stay" by the bowl and you can walk away, come back and then release her to eat. This is just how Remi is responding. She seems to appreciate it honestly.

I understand its different strokes for different folks and that's why I was looking for feedback, either way and both sides of the debate. Originally, I was going to stick with "sit means stay" because I understood it the same as jstevens is saying and also seen it(the discussion) mentioned elsewhere numerous times. In research it almost seems like a 50/50 split. Some use "stay", some dont.

Sit until otherwise told...it just wasn't working for us that well and since our one night of starting to implement "stay", its been a world of difference. I for one, am extremely glad we went that direction and I do believe for Remi is too as well!

I wouldn't mind seeing this discussion continue...if you all wish. There is some good info here and valid points on both sides. So if you wish...carry on...
Both "sit" and "stay" seem to work depending on how each command was/is enforced.

When the dog is already lying down and I don't want him to get up i.e.(someone enters the room) stay is used and works. Where else do you use stay in your training?
 

jstevens

New member
Ill start out with, I don't have the experience that most of you do in regards to gun dog training. However, I will say that since myself and Remi have introduced stay, she has responded so much better to "sit" followed by "stay" or simply "stay" versus just "sit". After one 48 hour period(roughly) of "stay" I was able to walk lets say, about 30 yards from her and she will patiently wait until released. When it was just "sit"...maybe, maybe you could get 10 yards from her, tops and it wouldn't be consistent. This never changed. I am not pushing her as she is young, just seeing what she is responding to and how...whats her demeanor like. She seems poised to "stay". So her range(of waiting patiently) and focus seemed to increase since introducing "stay". I can also now have her "stay" after I throw a dummy and she will wait for the "ok" or go right after it, pending on which I tell her. Prior to this, if you tried to command just "sit", she was going on the retrieve immediately no matter what you wanted her to do. Same thing with her food. Before there was no "staying" after you told her "sit" and even reminded her as much as needed. Now she will "stay" by the bowl and you can walk away, come back and then release her to eat. This is just how Remi is responding. She seems to appreciate it honestly.

I understand its different strokes for different folks and that's why I was looking for feedback, either way and both sides of the debate. Originally, I was going to stick with "sit means stay" because I understood it the same as jstevens is saying and also seen it(the discussion) mentioned elsewhere numerous times. In research it almost seems like a 50/50 split. Some use "stay", some dont.

Sit until otherwise told...it just wasn't working for us that well and since our one night of starting to implement "stay", its been a world of difference. I for one, am extremely glad we went that direction and I do believe for Remi is too as well!

I wouldn't mind seeing this discussion continue...if you all wish. There is some good info here and valid points on both sides. So if you wish...carry on...
I don't know that I even know the best way, but if I give a sit or down and the dog moves, I take them right back to the exact spot, 'sit' again, and leave. If the dog moves, we do it all again. Then a treat or a toy when it's done correctly. It usually doesn't take all that long before they get the message. I just found it's easier to teach one command than two, and possibly less confusion for the dog, although dogs can do multiple command fairly easily.
 

outdoorslife89

New member
I don't know that I even know the best way, but if I give a sit or down and the dog moves, I take them right back to the exact spot, 'sit' again, and leave. If the dog moves, we do it all again. Then a treat or a toy when it's done correctly. It usually doesn't take all that long before they get the message. I just found it's easier to teach one command than two, and possibly less confusion for the dog, although dogs can do multiple command fairly easily.
That was part of my intent initially. Im with ya! One command should be easier...You would think!? "Why teach redundant commands?" was part of my thinking, after reading about those who skip stay. I trained like you did and with treats. For whatever reason she picked up all of the other commands in our vocab relatively easy. Sit just didn't mean sit and stay to her, for whatever reason and inconsistent results at best. I gave it a shot("stay") and its been flawless for the most past ever since. Kinda "wowed" me. Granted she is still very very young but everything else has been "easy" for her(which is what got me thinking if we need to try something diff and hence this thread) compared to that one and she seemed to understand "stay" right off the bat. Its been a lot of fun for us so far. I know Im enjoying it, I hope she is! lol
 

outdoorslife89

New member
Both "sit" and "stay" seem to work depending on how each command was/is enforced.

When the dog is already lying down and I don't want him to get up i.e.(someone enters the room) stay is used and works. Where else do you use stay in your training?
Ive used it for coming back inside of the house: Wait at the front door...sit...stay...

At her food bowl: Place bowl...sit...stay...

After throwing a quail dummy she will stay until released...

On the tailgate the other day checking her for ticks and brushing her...

All of this got many times better since introducing stay not long ago! Actually she didn't and I didn't try getting her to sit when I threw the dummy before but because she picked it up so well...we then tried and succeeded right off the bat. Its gotta be like how for us some things click and some don't...its just clicked for her
 
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