Flushing Lab Distance Control

[Hoster05]

I have a 1 year old flushing lab that is very high energy and has a great nose on her. In the field she will quarter nicely but sometimes she will pick up on a scent and run way off following it. I have been working on whistle sit with her and she does decent obedience wise until her adrenaline really starts going. I have been trying not to be the guy who blows is his whistle for 5 min straight out in the field and I don't want to use the e-collar on her non stop but I obviously cant have her running off either. Any advice on drills that I can use to help control her distance or do I just need to be tougher on obedience in the field? Walk for awhile, make her sit for a bit, walk some more etc?

 

[BigRand]

You shouldn't have to use the collar all that often. Most come equipped with a vibrate or beep that you can use. Give her your command. If she doesn't listen, give it to her again in a short order and this time with a beep or vibrate as the warning. If she keeps going give her the command again and this time with a shock. If she keeps going, repeat the cimmand, this time with a higher or longer shock. You shouldn't have to do this very many times. They catch on rather quickly. Mine was the same way when we started. If they're not going to listen and know who is boss there is no point for them going. A bird flushed out of range is no good to anyone. Especially the energy the dog wastes to put that bird up for no opportunity on it.

 

[gforcetrivers]

PP pic

I have a PP same thing. When the birds are running he will catch up to them. Of course by that time they are 300+ yards out and flushing out the end of the field.

Packer is getting better about it but I went through the same thing when he was 12 months. I didnt want to use the collar either. I was worried about killing his drive. Same issue with steady to flush, shot and fall. I think it all links together. First year should be a lot of fun for the dog.

Is she steady otherwise? Does she Whoa?

I take Packer to a pond with hundreds of geese on it, let him out and as he stalks the birds and they get restless he keeps pace and I whoa him. Release him and whoa him again, use a CC at first. If he needs stimulation I give him a little. It takes a lot for them to fly and even then they just come back. This has been a great excerise. I usually let him get in the water and try to catch one but he cant and soon figures that out and returns to shore and we repeat. Let him run down the shore and whoa him. Captive birds more or less, confined area and learns to whoa and still sees birds. You have a lot of control in this situation.

I am not a trainer and haven't had a dog for a very long time. But he is doing great. Take your time she is just a baby. For me the second year his obedience has just started to click. It was frustrating for a while. Others will no doubt chime in. Very common problem it seems.

 

[jonnyB]

I'm on my fifth hunting dog...

This is a universal problem with strong prey-drive dogs - some will even take the shock vs slowing down or turning.

Just be consistent and heed the advice from the previous posts! Big Rand (previous) captures my sentiment completely, when it come to dogs that run-off.

Good luck!

 

[Gatzby]

You shouldn't have to use the collar all that often. Most come equipped with a vibrate or beep that you can use. Give her your command. If she doesn't listen, give it to her again in a short order and this time with a beep or vibrate as the warning. If she keeps going give her the command again and this time with a shock. If she keeps going, repeat the cimmand, this time with a higher or longer shock. You shouldn't have to do this very many times. They catch on rather quickly. Mine was the same way when we started. If they're not going to listen and know who is boss there is no point for them going. A bird flushed out of range is no good to anyone. Especially the energy the dog wastes to put that bird up for no opportunity on it.

With a high prey dog you will have a bit of a challenge, but I'll take that challenge over a timid no drive dog! The fire breathers are a pain in the ass but the rewards are sweet

I agree with BigRand but I doubt tone or beep will have much effect, the high rollers tend to need a solid no nonsense correction.

 

[BigRand]

My lab is four and a half and we are on our fifth season. It seems like the first couple of times every year she needs to be reminded who has his finger on the button but after that all it takes is a whistle and occasional vibrate. She knows what comes next.

 

[david0311]

David0311

With a high prey dog you will have a bit of a challenge, but I'll take that challenge over a timid no drive dog! The fire breathers are a pain in the ass but the rewards are sweet

I agree with BigRand but I doubt tone or beep will have much effect, the high rollers tend to need a solid no nonsense correction.

Agree with you both--

Correct me if wrong-everyone does anyway--

But I believe he means the buzz or tone means "SHAPE UP --OR YOU KNOW WHAT COMES NEXT"

At least that's how I have trained mine--Buzz or tone to them means "come here and check in --get closer --or else:cheers:
JMO

 

[Flushedup]

Agree with you both--

Correct me if wrong-everyone does anyway--

But I believe he means the buzz or tone means "SHAPE UP --OR YOU KNOW WHAT COMES NEXT"

At least that's how I have trained mine--Buzz or tone to them means "come here and check in --get closer --or else:cheers:
JMO

That's how my pup understands the game. I usually don't nick him but like said before, every once in a while hes gotta remember who's finger is on the button. 96/100 times, a beep will get him back in range.

I do not, however subscribe to shocking a dog who is obviously hot on scent. If you cant get your butt near that dog before he gets that bird up its your own fault.

 

[Hoster05]

You shouldn't have to use the collar all that often. Most come equipped with a vibrate or beep that you can use. Give her your command. If she doesn't listen, give it to her again in a short order and this time with a beep or vibrate as the warning. If she keeps going give her the command again and this time with a shock. If she keeps going, repeat the cimmand, this time with a higher or longer shock. You shouldn't have to do this very many times. They catch on rather quickly. Mine was the same way when we started. If they're not going to listen and know who is boss there is no point for them going. A bird flushed out of range is no good to anyone. Especially the energy the dog wastes to put that bird up for no opportunity on it.

My e-collar does have a vibrate function on it, I have been using that as a warning but will be more vigilante about it. I am finding myself wanting to keep her in range and staying so focused on that but get her the experience she needs as a first year puppy. Obviously I cannot have her running off though.

 

[mnaj_springer]

I fear your obedience is not quite as good as you may have thought. Go back to the basics and be sure that "sit" means "sit." It's not "sit if you'd like to" or "sit at your earliest convenience." It means "sit your hind parts down right now or else." Do that away from birds. In the yard and a field (without birds). Then start adding distractions. Have the pup sit and throw pigeons out (flyers). Then move closer and again. Soon you'll throw them right in front of your pup. When you add the pigeons you'll know whether or not you have an adequate foundation.

That being said, if this was my dog in its first season, I'd do nothing. This year is fun and your dog is learning that hunting is fun. Just make sure the pup comes home at the end of the day.

 

[westksbowhunter]

I fear your obedience is not quite as good as you may have thought. Go back to the basics and be sure that "sit" means "sit." It's not "sit if you'd like to" or "sit at your earliest convenience." It means "sit your hind parts down right now or else." Do that away from birds. In the yard and a field (without birds). Then start adding distractions. Have the pup sit and throw pigeons out (flyers). Then move closer and again. Soon you'll throw them right in front of your pup. When you add the pigeons you'll know whether or not you have an adequate foundation.

That being said, if this was my dog in its first season, I'd do nothing. This year is fun and your dog is learning that hunting is fun. Just make sure the pup comes home at the end of the day.

I agree with this. My idea of obedience differs from most everyone else. That is why most guys have to leave their dogs at home when they hunt with me. Also there is no such thing a "Problem with High Prey Dogs". Isn't that what we select the best breeding for when buying a puppy? If a dog did not have high prey drive why in the world would you own it? The problem isn't high prey drive in dog but instead the owners problem in the way the dog was trained. Unfortunately, waiting 2 weeks before the season opening is not the time to correct it.

With that said, a 1 year old is a puppy and many quality trainers won't hunt a dog that young. Myself, I always do, but I don't correct that young dog in his first season for doing what he was bred to do. At 1 year old the puppy is still in training and training should be treated differently from hunting. You have to decide if you want to kill birds or if you want to train your dog for the next 10 years of being a hunting companion. If so, put down the gun and put the dog through a thorough obedience program which will take at least 6 weeks.

I will also add that the foundation for a quality retriever is a month or so of obedience, force fetch, and collar conditioning. So basically a thorough 3 or 4 month basic training. While many on here don't believe in force fetch, it sets the tone for how the dog learns to control pressure. A dog that is force fetched is generally always better in the field with obedience than an unforce fetched dog.

 

[Gatzby]

Agree with you both--

Correct me if wrong-everyone does anyway--

But I believe he means the buzz or tone means "SHAPE UP --OR YOU KNOW WHAT COMES NEXT"

At least that's how I have trained mine--Buzz or tone to them means "come here and check in --get closer --or else:cheers:
JMO

You are probably right.
But why say "here", if dog doesnt comply, give a warning tone/vibrate, if dog still doesn't comply and then give correction? Id say "here", if dog doesn't comply say "here" give a nick (correction) followed by "here". This will be more clear to the dog as "here" is the command to follow.
If you say "here", (dog blows you off) you say "here" with a tone/vibrate and (dog blows you off) then give correction. Tone/vibrate has now became the command (not verbal "here"). This would be fine if you use a collar 100% of the time. I hope I explained this in an understandable way!
I will add use enough intensity to change behavior. I would rather give a couple stout well timed corrections than a bunch of nagging nicks that don't really change anything

 

[goldenboy]

I agree with this comment.

When the birds are wild even a whistle can send them running or flying out of range. I use the vibrate button a lot! It means get back here now or something worse is coming. I too have a one year old pup, but she is learning it quickly.

I also used to think nicking or shocking a dog off of a scent trail would cause negative outcomes. I will tell you this, last week numerous times I had to call one of my dogs off of a hot scent,(I choose not to run in the field to catch up to them!)once they come back to me and I release them, they immediately go back to the last spot they had that scent and almost always the bird is very close by and I get a shot at the bird. That is a win for the dog, for me, and for the collar. I don not think anymore that it has a negative effect on them or their prey drive.

Agree with you both--

Correct me if wrong-everyone does anyway--

But I believe he means the buzz or tone means "SHAPE UP --OR YOU KNOW WHAT COMES NEXT"

At least that's how I have trained mine--Buzz or tone to them means "come here and check in --get closer --or else:cheers:
JMO

 

[david0311]

David 0311

You are probably right.
But why say "here", if dog doesnt comply, give a warning tone/vibrate, if dog still doesn't comply and then give correction? Id say "here", if dog doesn't comply say "here" give a nick (correction) followed by "here". This will be more clear to the dog as "here" is the command to follow.
If you say "here", (dog blows you off) you say "here" with a tone/vibrate and (dog blows you off) then give correction. Tone/vibrate has now became the command (not verbal "here"). This would be fine if you use a collar 100% of the time. I hope I explained this in an understandable way!
I will add use enough intensity to change behavior. I would rather give a couple stout well timed corrections than a bunch of nagging nicks that don't really change anything

We're.on same.page..no difference.other than technique..

Yea I always have a.collar on when training or hunting..

I was probably not.clear enough..

I hate to hear people.shouting at their dogs all day so..

Tone/vibrate with out voice means. I don't see you or know exactly where you are..Check in so I can see you..

Voice and.tone/vibrate together.means. LAST WARNING I MEAN NOW

Only after.that warning does the heat come on..:cheers:

 

[ranchodeluxe]

This all starts with basic training. I suggest you get a copy of Kenneth Roebuck's book titled "Gun Dog Training for Spaniels and retrievers". He wasn't big on shock collars, neither am I. It starts with leash, come, whistle and sit training. As mentioned above, get him to the point where he sits on command, no matter where he is, no matter how many dummies you throw. then at least you can sit him while you catch up to him. Check cord training with pigeons is a low stress, old school method to cure this simple issue. Just need him to realize that he ain't getting any retrieves unless he stays in gun range. Resist the temptation to use the shock collar as they can cause as much trouble as they fix.Also, there will come the day when the collar fails you (battery, receiver, transmitter issues), then you have little control if you have not done your basic, old school training. I use them on my dogs, but just in case of a situation where the dog is in danger, (crossing a road and disregarding recall command, collision course with a vicious animal, etc). If you have to use an e collar on a pup to handle his hunting/quartering, you have failed him in his basic training. For hundreds, on some breeds over a thousand years (spaniels), there was no such thing as a shock collar, and they still are not necessary in most situations.

Above all, heed the previous poster's advice to keep it fun, the dog is in a period of life critical to your future success. If he frustrates you, breathe in, breathe out, move on.

 

[Flushedup]

I also used to think nicking or shocking a dog off of a scent trail would cause negative outcomes. I will tell you this, last week numerous times I had to call one of my dogs off of a hot scent,(I choose not to run in the field to catch up to them!)once they come back to me and I release them, they immediately go back to the last spot they had that scent and almost always the bird is very close by and I get a shot at the bird. That is a win for the dog, for me, and for the collar. I don not think anymore that it has a negative effect on them or their prey drive.

Interesting. While I might not run in the field, there is a time for a little hustle. I can call him off but we would be back to the same situation 5 seconds after I release and he gets back on that scent.

I have talked to plenty of others and they feel the same way you do about it not affecting the dog, but it just seems.... wrong? I don't know.

 

[goldenboy]

Interesting. While I might not run in the field, there is a time for a little hustle. I can call him off but we would be back to the same situation 5 seconds after I release and he gets back on that scent.

I have talked to plenty of others and they feel the same way you do about it not affecting the dog, but it just seems.... wrong? I don't know.

Flushedup,

I guide at game farms in my spare time. If I let the dogs run loose for more than 10 seconds they are on a bird and it is out of range. I tell guys all the time, I just called the dog off of a bird, keep walking forward and I will release the dog when we are in range and you be ready. Many times guys look at me in disbelief as the dogs run back to the spot and up jumps the bird. They shoot it and say, you were right she knew exactly where that bird was. Without discipline and training they are just dogs that chase birds. Under control they provide a quality hunt for everyone including themselves, they love to deliver that bird back to you! Good luck in your training and obedience.

 

[david0311]

David0311

Rancho---

If you do not recommend the use of collars in training--and recommend the leash--come-sit method-ect.ect-

When do you recommend doing collar conditioning --so you can use the collar to protect them in the dangerous situations you describe--?

When your superior--leash ect. training fails--

Also--is Wikipedia the definitive source on dog training and dogs types as you use in your signature post?

Just asking

 

[ranchodeluxe]

Rancho---

If you do not recommend the use of collars in training--and recommend the leash--come-sit method-ect.ect-

When do you recommend doing collar conditioning --so you can use the collar to protect them in the dangerous situations you describe--?

When your superior--leash ect. training fails--

Also--is Wikipedia the definitive source on dog training and dogs types as you use in your signature post?

Just asking

"Collar conditioning" is catch phrase that you more sophisticated types like to lay on us uneducated idiots. Like E collar, versus shock collar.

I can tell you that when my male was following a wounded rooster across Interstate 90 and not responding to recall, he stopped when I hit him with the shock, turned and came away from the road. All he knew is something was happening that he didn't like and it stopped when he stopped.

Now, same story when he was headed to tangle with a badger, exact same story, gave me time to kill the badger without him shredding my dog.

Ever had your dog come face to face with a mountain lion? I didn't think so, but I have. I knew the dog had smelled a lion before, in all likelihood, as we run with the motorcycle 8 miles a day through lion country, but knew she had never seen one. She headed toward him and I stopped her with the collar after she disregarded my recall command. The hugest male lion I have ever seen alive then grunted and walked away. What do you suspect he would have done to a 45 lb Springer?

So pretend your more sophisticated than us SD hilljacks, you may be, but you don't know much about handling dogs in a dangerous situation, I suspect. It has saved my dogs from certain harm, if not death, so it did it's job. when I shocked the dog, it had nothing to do with training, it was life or death, my dogs are still alive.

Again I will say to all you experts and your shock collar, high pressure tactics: Kenneth Roebuck is the foremost authority on Spaniels in the World, he's long dead, but Hawthorne Kennel blood will be rampant in world-class spaniels for a century, in the meantime, no one has ever heard of YOU.

 

[david0311]

David0311

Rancho-Rancho--

Calm down--

I was just asking a question--so you could further enlighten us--

I do not disagree with every thing you write--

In fact I compliment you on your self diagnosis of why we disagree in your first sentance:

You have been very critical of me and some others as to training methods--
YET--you run a dog that you can't call back with your methods along I-90 and have to divert to ours-

As to your other hair raising and there I WAS situations you relate--

Were you by your self of accompanied by Walter MITTY-