Does "speed" kill...

[JMc]

Was perusing the Muller choke page and came across this article. Kind of makes sense. What does the UPH crew think?

Here is my experience regarding shot shell velocity in a nutshell: the faster you push the payload the more you and your accuracy will suffer.

With today’s marketing propaganda being all about “Hyper Sonic Velocity” and “Speed Kills” slogans, target shooters and especially waterfowl hunters are being sold a bill of goods, resulting in a situation that is not only negatively effecting their shooting capabilities, but is also hurting our health and longevity for the sports we love.

Here’s what’s happening: The best patterning loads are between 1145 - 1250 feet per second (FPS). The worst are ones that exceed 1350, and the new hunting loads that exceed 1400 are outright worthless.

The slower the payload leaves the muzzle the better, because you get fewer damaged pellets which means you have fewer “flyers,” the damaged pellets that leave the effective pattern due to wind, G-forces, and gravity. (Flyers and blown patterns are also caused by over choking, especially in hunting loads, which we will discuss later in the article.) Less velocity also means less felt recoil, less perceived recoil, less muzzle flip, faster recovery of equilibrium for follow- up shots, fewer blown rotator cuffs, fewer neck problems—not to mention lower ammunition costs.

There is a second reason that faster loads are not always better. The faster the load starts out, the faster it spreads out. When you have a really fast target and a small window of shooting opportunity--such as a clay target screaming thru trees or a rabbit target bouncing between hay bales within 25 yards---and all you want to do is point and shoot almost right at it, then by all means go shoot a 1500 FPS shell at it because it will get there instantaneously while spreading out your pattern as quickly and violently as possible. But if you want to shoot a 60+ yard crosser on edge you had better opt for the 1145 - 1250 FPS. With the slower load, almost 100% of your pellets will reach the target at 60+ yards due to less deformation on ignition and fewer G-forces upon exiting the muzzle. The pattern of the slower load will also remain tighter for greater distances. To clarify, if you shoot a high velocity shell at a 60+ yard crosser you may end up with only 50% of your original payload getting to the target and of that 50% the pattern is opened up to the point where you may only hit that target with 1 or 2 pellets which will probably not be sufficient to break it. But if you were shooting a slower payload, that target would get hit by 4 or more pellets, giving you a very solid, consistent break every time.

 

[birdshooter]

Theoretically this would be true that ultra fast loads tend not to pattern as tight as moderate to slower speed loads due to higher pressures and more setback forces. What this does is deform the lead pellets ever so slightly thus creating more air resistance thus more flyers. In a nutshell the pellets don't fly as true. Antimony in the lead shot also plays a big part on the deformity of lead pellets. Hard (high antimony) shot flies truer than softer (low antimony) lead shot. Antimony in premium lead target loads is normally in the 5-6% range while antimony in lead hunting loads is generally a few points less due to the larger pellet size.

Of course the only way to prove that is to do patterning of your own. Shotguns, barrels and chokes are very much individual with any gun and even within the same brand of shotgun and choke you may have different results. The experts recommend patterning a particular load with 10 separate patterns to derive an average. More would be better, but not many are likely willing to go to those extremes. Shooting one or two patterns gives you a glimpse but may not tell the whole story.

The other thing about speed as is mentioned in your post is that the higher the velocity at the muzzle the slower those pellets will be slowing down due to air resistance. So.. comparing the speed of a 1250 fps load to a 1400 fps load at different distances the faster load will have lost a greater percentage of it's velocity advantage it had at the muzzle over the slower load at any given yardage. At 40 yards it may have lost possibly 80% of it's initial advantage. But ultra fast velocities sounds good to the average consumer, but there is another drawback, it kicks the hell out of you !!.

You may have heard of Tom Roster who is a ballistics expert and author. Some time ago he wrote an article called "Does speed kill" His findings are "maybe"

A Quote:

My decades of lethality testing of lead and nontoxic shotshell loads for taking waterfowl and upland game birds have revealed the science-based reality that with lead and nontoxic tungsten-composite pellet hunting loads possessing lead shot equivalent pellet densities, all you need for effective (spelled: lethal) velocity is something near 1250 fps ± 50 fps. For steel loads, all that is needed is something near 1350 fps ± 50 fps. Launch velocities in excess of these benchmarks have not proven to increase lethality, but do help some shooters with their leads and thus hitting success.

Full article here: http://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/does-speed-kill.html

 

[birdshooter]

To be honest I've shot the ounce and a quarter 1330 fps load at pheasants and i've tried the 1400+ fps stuff and the slower load kills em just as dead. I can't tell a lick a difference.

I shoot 1 1/8 oz #7.5 for sporting clays at 1150 fps. Years ago I used to shoot handicap AA's that pushed 1300. The slower load breaks targets with authority whether at 20 yards or 40 yards. If there's a perceived difference in how much lead i need to give a target it isn't obvious to me and as I stated above there is a very noticeable difference in felt recoil.

My 2 cents.

 

[Chip]

Very interesting thread

 

[AteUp]

Very interesting article by Roster in shooting sportsman about practicing with low recoil loads in the March/April issue.

 

[A5 Sweet 16]

My $0.02.....Speed CAN kill. Sometimes you need extra energy to effectively penetrate a bird at a given range. The only way to do that is to increase velocity, shot size, or both. But the faster loads TEND to not pattern as well, whether that be from shot deformation, crowding in the choke, long shot strings, or whatever. But….most fast loads CAN be tweaked to perform well, which takes time & $$. The right gun/choke combination alone can work & it is possible to luck out on some of the fast factory stuff. But my most successful fast loads are hand loads, where I can not only vary the gun & choke, but also play with type of shot (magnum lead, nickel-plated, etc.), buffering, number & depth of slits in the shotcup, etc.

Another thing that’s fun to think about is this, especially when talking about the lethality of different shot material. Consider some pretty fast, nice, round steel. It loses its energy quickly, so we increase muzzle velocity so it has plenty of energy at some range. But it can be so fast, round, & hard that it zips right through a bird, losing relatively little of its energy IN the bird. Yes, it may zip through the right area & create wounds that might eventually bring a bird down & kill it. But the impact itself isn’t always severe. Compare that to something just a little slower that still has plenty of energy to penetrate. If the BB stays in the bird, it means all its energy was imparted to the bird. This can be particularly devastating if the shot is lead that was slightly deformed (maybe even has a rough edge) and drags more feathers into the bird. It not only leaves a bigger hole, but because it’s more likely to stay in the bird, more energy is transferred. Bismuth and tungsten-matrix are similar. They have a tendency to break apart on impact. When this happens, the smaller pieces stay in the bird & all the energy a BB had the moment before impact is imparted to the bird.

Yes, it’s somewhat dizzying, but so fun to discuss. Speed CAN kill. Shock & destruction ALWAYS kill. Speed sometimes prohibits shock & destruction.

 

[dukxdog]

The higher the velocity the faster the pellets slow down due to wind resistance. I kill most all my upland birds using 1oz at 1150-1200fps. Ducks using steel I shoot 1300-1400fps.

I also don't pay any attention to shot patterns so never "pattern" any of my shotguns. Patterns guys talk about are two dimensional. In real life shots are three dimensional. Sometimes you kill birds or targets with the front pellets and other times you kill with the rear pellets.

 

[A5 Sweet 16]

The higher the velocity the faster the pellets slow down due to wind resistance. I kill most all my upland birds using 1oz at 1150-1200fps. Ducks using steel I shoot 1300-1400fps.

I also don't pay any attention to shot patterns so never "pattern" any of my shotguns. Patterns guys talk about are two dimensional. In real life shots are three dimensional. Sometimes you kill birds or targets with the front pellets and other times you kill with the rear pellets.

Yes, faster pellets slow down faster. But for a given shot material & size, you have to get downrange significantly before an increase of, say, 150 fps at the muzzle is negated. That's not to say I'm advocating really fast loads (see previous post). But there's a significant difference in pellet energy at 40 yards for a lead #5 that began flight at 1150 fps vs. one that began at 1330 fps. And at those muzzle velocities, you've not reached speeds (generally) where patterning becomes problematic.

As for killing birds with the front or back of a shot string: Take a 5' long shot string downrange at a point that velocity has decreased to, say, 800 fps. Now take a worst-case pure crosser at 30 mph. It takes the back pellets 0.006 seconds to travel that 5'. In that time, the bird has only flown 3.3". Stretch that out to a real bad case scenario. 10' shot string; 600 fps pellet velocity; 45 mph pure crosser. The bird only flies 13" in the time it takes the entire 10' shot string to pass. At flight angles less than 90 degrees, shot string effect only decreases. This, to me, shows that for the most part, all the shot arrives at the bird at pretty much the same time, making shotgun pattern nearly a 2-d study. But......what we try to avoid (as do ammo manufacturers) is long strings. Because when strings become too long, patterns suffer (the 2-d aspect). Bob Brister's "Shotgunning: The Art & the Science" goes into this in great detail. But his methods of measuring shot string length can be deceiving. He ends up showing a shot string stretched out (left to right) for several feet as a moving pattern board is pulled by a car. This demonstrates shot string length, but is NOT an indicator of what kind of margin of error you have BECAUSE of shot stringing. We all know this to be true from a practical standpoint. Depending on range & pattern diameter (a 2-d dimension), many times if you're off by a foot one way or the other, you miss clean.

 

[birdshooter]

As Roster points out after his extensive lethality report.

My decades of lethality testing of lead and nontoxic shotshell loads for taking waterfowl and upland game birds have revealed the science-based reality that with lead and nontoxic tungsten-composite pellet hunting loads possessing lead shot equivalent pellet densities, all you need for effective (spelled: lethal) velocity is something near 1250 fps ± 50 fps. For steel loads, all that is needed is something near 1350 fps ± 50 fps. Launch velocities in excess of these benchmarks have not proven to increase lethality, but do help some shooters with their leads and thus hitting success.

So... In essence anything in excess of these launch velocities does NOT increase killing power.

 

[A5 Sweet 16]

So... In essence anything in excess of these launch velocities does NOT increase killing power.

True, within a given range, using appropriate shot sizes, for most shooters. But there's a point where those muzzle velocities (w/ a given shot material & size) lose lethality. Additional speed CAN extend effective range somewhat (increased killing power further out), provided a person can hit that far out, pattern density is sufficient, all the stars line up right, etc., etc.

 

[birdshooter]

But there's a point where those muzzle velocities (w/ a given shot material & size) lose lethality. Additional speed CAN extend effective range somewhat (increased killing power further out), provided a person can hit that far out, pattern density is sufficient, all the stars line up right, etc., etc.

There's always a point to where any muzzle velocity loses lethality.

Few points: Let's use 40 yards as are yardage marker and we'll stay with one shot size and material.

1st - Since higher velocities do not pattern as dense as slower velocities (shot size being equal) due to increased air resistance, you effectively lose pattern density thus pellets on target as distance increases. Lets face it round balls have horrible aerodynamics to begin with. You launch them at faster velocities coupled with increased shot deformation and you now have even worse aerodynamics.

2nd -Most ultra fast loads are generally smaller (load size) to be able to push those velocities and keep pressures down. So now your higher velocity load (which carries fewer pellets) puts even few pellets yet on target. I'll take more pellets on target vs 30-50 fps speed advantage any day of the week.

3rd. Law of diminishing returns. What started out as 150 fps advantage at muzzle has likely diminished to less than 50 fps at 40 yards. With speed loss comes energy loss. The difference in ft/lbs of energy has also decreased exponentially @ 40 yards to the point that the individual pellet ft/lbs or penetration differences to be almost nill between the two.

So what does all this mean? You add all of these deficiencies up and you have lost most if not all advantage in velocity, pattern density (pellets on target) and pellet energy over the slower velocity load you so gloriously had at the muzzle. This is not merely matter of opinion, its straight up physics.

Tom Roster is a highly regarded shotgun Ballistics specialist and has done countless studies on shotshell lethality as well as shotshell ballistics. When he states that speed kills up to a certain point he means velocity. Anything faster DOES NOT increase lethality regardless of distance. There's only one degree of dead. There's no deader, deadest etc...

Ultra velocity is purely marketing. You could effectively change the thread topic from "Speed kills" to "Speed sells". :cheers:

FWIW.

 

[A5 Sweet 16]

This is great discussion. I love thinking about this stuff. I sometimes wonder if/when I’m going to think myself out of being able to hit anything.

Nothing against Roster. He’s got more shotgun knowledge in his pinky than I’ll ever have, & I pretty much believe all his findings. But I have a feeling his findings are based on experience that’s a bit more limited than he lets on. When he says all you need is 1,350 fps muzzle velocity for steel, I really believe it should be followed up with “inside 40-45 yards” (or something). Consider this. You just don’t hear the complaints about steel that you used to. Why? In small part because people “learned to hit with it”, but let’s face it, even on a long, fast-moving bird, the required lead only changed by about a foot. The main reason people are happier with steel nowadays is because it’s faster & patterns better than it used to for several reasons (improved shot cups, chokes, pressures, etc.).

Is fast steel necessary for pheasants? Absolutely not, because ranges are by and large 45 yards or less. I don’t even like fast lead because it too is not needed for pheasants & doesn’t pattern well out of my A5 (yes, I’ve tried plenty of it). And the hyper-fast stuff IS more marketing gimmick than anything else……for the average hunter.

But talk to serious waterfowlers, particularly the goose nuts. Back before the advent of Alliant “Steel” powder, long range geese with steel were problematic. There are lots of guys who were used to shooting geese with lead 2’s or BB’s at 50-60 yards regularly, who had a heck of a time with steel. It wasn’t because they couldn’t put their shot where it needed to be. It just didn’t have the energy left to bring the birds down. These guys are good & geese at 50-60 yards had never posed a problem of ethics. Then hand-loaders, and eventually the ammo manufacturers, started to get good at fast steel. Shell components improved. Guns & chokes improved to a point that they could maintain decent pattern density at 60 yards. All of a sudden these guys started killing long geese again. I’ll pull some numbers out of the air in an attempt to explain why.

Take 2 loads with the same shot material & size.
Load 1 = 1,350 fps at muzzle; 650 fps at 50 yds.
Load 2 = 1,650 fps at muzzle; 700 fps at 50 yds.
(remember, these are just guesses)
A 22% increase in muzzle velocity results in a seemingly negligible increase in velocity at 50 yds, but each pellet has 16% more energy at that range. That's significant!

Yes, the faster steel slowed down faster. Yes, the shot charges decreased, but some of them went out and bought 10 gauges or 3.5” 12’s. Yes, they had to try several choke tubes before finally finding one that’d maintain acceptable pattern density at long range. But they did it. And now, because of fast steel, they’re able to reliably put the hurt on long range geese again. Fast steel achieves a degree of “dead” for them that slower stuff couldn’t. They don’t care how much it hurts their shoulders.

Am I one of these guys? Used to be. But I don’t hunt waterfowl enough anymore to be much good past 45-50 yds. These days, 95% of my hunting is for pheasants, & my lead or bismuth leaves the barrel at 1260-1300 and makes roosters an appropriate “deadness”. I’m slowing down with age.

 

[JMc]

I remember dropping birds over thirty years ago with 1oz 7 1/2's...now, I'm chasing wounded birds after hitting them with high powered 4's and 5's. I keep telling myself it's the gun and ammo but I'm beginning to wonder...

 

[birdshooter]

I remember the steel that was available when it became mandatory. Poor would be a kind term to describe it. My Snow goose hunting days back in the 90's I recall lying in a ground blind with a flock hovering above us checking our spread cautiously not wanting to fully commit. All the while I was trying to determine whether they were in range of my 1350 fps BBB's. When I guessed wrong there was the audible sound of pellets hitting feathers, wings et.. But nothing would fall out of the sky. Later we came up with a crude but effective method of estimating distance. We would have one guy take a dead bird and hold it up with wings spread all the way out, while you paced off different yardages all the way to 60 paces. By memorizing what that wingspan looked like dramatically increased our kill ratio with far fewer cripples. Remembering what those flocks looked like before this has us saying to ourselves, wow they were likely 20 yards beyond practical range for BBB's. Judging distance is often difficult when there is no background to draw from.

 

[birdshooter]

Regarding HV steel. You can make a better case with HV steel vs HV Lead as you don't have the shot deformation to deal with. You still have to deal with increased air resistance and the fact that steel is lighter which causes it to slow even quicker when comparing it with lead shot of equal size. This why the standard two shot sizes larger using steel vs lead equivilency for downrage ballistics was determined.

IMO if Tungsten wasn't so darn expensive, steel may have fizzled out by now.

 

[Joe Hunter]

I agree with Roster's comments on load velocity and if I think I need more pellet energy, I go up a shot size. As mentioned by others, you really need to pattern your gun/load/choke to confirm performance of the high-velocity loads.

Here are a few of my pattern numbers to show the performance I got when I compared a couple of Federal's pheasant hunting loads in my gun/chokes.

Patterning results from a 12-gauge Browning Citori with 28" Invector-plus barrels using Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

12 GA 2 3/4" FEDERAL GAME-SHOK HEAVY FIELD LOAD
1 ¼ oz #5 lead (224 pellets) @ 1220 fps
30 YARDS – IC / pattern 173 (77%)
40 YARDS – Mod / pattern 145 (65%)
50 YARDS – Full / pattern 109 (49%)

12 GA 2 3/4" FEDERAL PREMIUM UPLAND HIGH-VELOCITY LOAD
1 ¼ oz #5 lead (216 pellets) @ 1400 fps
30 YARDS – IC / pattern 152 (70%)
40 YARDS – Mod / pattern 126 (58%)
50 YARDS – Full / pattern 84 (39%)

It’s obvious from the pattern numbers that the high-velocity load shot more open patterns from the chokes tested. Both the IC and Modified chokes shot 7% tighter patterns with the slower Game-Shok load and 10% tighter with the Full choke.

Good luck!

 

[birdshooter]

Nice job Joe.

Let's be frank, counting holes in paper isn't the most exciting job in the world, in fact I could think of a million things I'd rather do on sunny afternoon. However, while not perfect as it can't measure shot string, it is about the only thing we have to measure how good a scatterguns effectiveness is with any choke or load combination other than results on the targets we shoot.

Finding the right combination can be tedious work and most are just not willing to go thru it and that's fine, to each his own.

 

[Joe Hunter]

Yes, the counting does get old, but I enjoy the rest of the exercise and of course seeing the results.

Don't want to get sidetracked on shot stings, but my take is:
1) all loads have some stringing,
2) it's pretty much insignificant in wing shooting, and
3) there's not much you can do about it anyway!

If I only had one 12ga lead load to shoot pheasants, I would shoot my 1 1/4-ounce load of #5 lead. Here are some my pattern numbers with that load, a SK/M combo is usually what I go with.

Patterning results from a 12-gauge Browning Citori with 28" Invector-plus barrels using Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

12 GA 2 3/4" RELOAD (WAACF, W209, UNIQUE, WAA12F114)
1 1/4 oz #5 mag lead (210 pellets) @ 1220 fps
30 YARDS / SK / pattern 145 (69%)
30 YARDS / IC / pattern 177 (84%)
40 YARDS / M / pattern 155 (74%)
40 YARDS / IM / pattern 174 (83%)

Good luck!

 

[birdshooter]

Yes, the counting does get old, but I enjoy the rest of the exercise and of course seeing the results.

Don't want to get sidetracked on shot stings, but my take is:
1) all loads have some stringing,
2) it's pretty much insignificant in wing shooting, and
3) there's not much you can do about it anyway!

Good luck!

We'll... there's almost nothing you can do about it. True all shotshell ammo has some stringing. Shot deformation has the biggest affect on shot stringing. Take a 3" .410, it's brutal on pellet deformation and creates some of the longest stringing of all the gauges. In comparison to a 12ga. 7/8 oz load it's quite long.

Steel shot has considerably shorter shot stringing than lead shot, why? NO shot deformation. Typical shot strings from a 12 ga. with hard lead shot at a 40 yards from what I've read are generally in the 8-12 ft length category. To minimize shot stringing use hard shot, the smaller load size and and lower velocities that still get the job done.

So the question begs to asked. Are there real world advantages to either long or shorter shot strings with regards to hitting what your pointing at? Short answer, probably not.

 

[Joe Hunter]

Yes, there are a few minor things you can do to shorten shot strings. Utilizing hard high antimony shot, cushioning and protecting the shot column (wad/cup), buffering in lead loads, etc. are some efforts used to reduce setback forces and bore scrub that cause pellet deformation in lead loads. Of course, steel and other hard non toxics don't use or need some of these.

"So the question begs to asked. Are there real world advantages to either long or shorter shot strings with regards to hitting what your pointing at? Short answer, probably not."

Other than extreme cases, like your 3" 410/12ga 7/8 oz. load comparison, I agree!