Any good books on Training Pointing labs

T

Timwald144

New member
I was wondering if there was any books you guys recommend for me to read and get caught up to speed again. I have trained two labs but never to point just to flush. This time im going with a lab that points.
Timothy
 
Pointing Labs

I bought my first pointing lab a year ago. I ended up getting the last pick on females and took what I could get. At 6 months she was pointing strong and never moved in on birds. By 9 months, I was ready to take her to pointing lab trials (American Pointing Lab Association), but she started flushing instead of pointing. I had taken her out a few times to hunt doves prior to the trials and had her retrieving downed birds. I think this confused her and she blew the trials by flushing and even catching two birds. What I am getting at is that you must keep up intensive pointing training for almost the entire first year of the dogs life to reinforce this trait. Also, make sure that the pup you buy shows strong pointing tendancies even if both parents are Grand master pointers.
 
Yeah the place im looking at sells them that only shows natural pointing skill. If they don't then they are sold at a lower price and are not guaranteed to have that. What book or dvd or meathod did you use to train your pointer
 
I used Julie Knutsons book mostly, but Gary Buys of Poudre River Gun Dogs (http://www.poudrerivergundogs.com/index.htm) is just coming out with a new video on training pointing labs, but it won't be out till Christmas. He has raised a bunch of Grand master Pointing Labs, so he should know a thing or two. Other than that, I used a check cord and a remotely controlled bird launcher to do most of my initial pointing work. Pigeons will work fine and they are cheap. You pretty much have to keep them on a check cord until you are absolutley sure they won't move in on the bird. DON'T ever let them catch the bird. Make sure they go to point at least 4-6 feet from the launcher. Just stop them with the cord if they want to get closer. Once they catch a bird, it is ten times harder to break them from moving in and trying to get it again. And don't shoot any birds over it for a good 4-8 weeks after initial startup of training. You will lose the bird, but reinforce pointing behaivor.
 
Stopping Labs???

"Pointing" is an inherited trait, not a learned behavior. Literally, you dont "train" a bird dog to point. They either are born with a strong pointing instinct or not. A well bred EP,ES,Brit or GSP will point anything and everything right from Day 1.

I hunt every year behind several Labs which come directly out of PL kennels.
Most of them never "point" anything under actual hunting conditions.

Training a dog to "stop" when it smells a bird is a whole different business, than "pointing". I can train a Tzitz Suix or any other mop dog to "stop" when it smells a bird.:cool:

NB
 
A lot of guys just don't like the fact that labs are having this trait bred into them. Europeans have bred their hunting dogs to have ALL these skills for years. My sister has a Large Munsterlander, look it up. These dogs do it ALL and its all natural. We are doing the same thing. Breeding labs that show strong pointing ability. I have been to many American Pointing Labrador Association trials and these dogs either naturally point or they fail the test. One trial I was at recently saw only 1 in 5 of the dogs pass the rigorous pointing stage of the trial, which comes first by the way. If you don't pass, your out of the trial and can't move on. They are very strict about natural ability being present.
 
And, I have seen many pointing breeds, when first starting out, move in on birds. If this behaivor isn't stopped, you have a flushing GSP.
 
Natty is right, there is a big difference in pointing and standing game. However (surely this has been hashed out here before) there are labrador retrievers that carry a strong pointing gene. They have not been trained to point. They point naturally. This is covered in Julie's Knutson's books. Pointing Labs are not a different breed, they are not crossed with a pointing breed. They are labs that point. And they are really fun to hunt with!!
BB
 
"Stopping Labs"

whiskeyhoundog said:
I have been to many American Pointing Labrador Association trials and these dogs either naturally point or they fail the test. One trial I was at recently saw only 1 in 5 of the dogs pass the rigorous pointing stage of the trial, which comes first by the way. If you don't pass, your out of the trial and can't move on. They are very strict about natural ability being present.
Click to expand...

Egggggzzzzzactly.

I have a hunting buddy who paid an outlandish sum ( $2000) for an 8 wk old Pointing Lab puppy from one of the biggest name PL kennels in the Midwest. I know for a fact, because I've hunted with that dog every year and watched him in RGS trials every year, that dog rarely if ever, points anything. Further, I'm told less than 25% of PL puppies ever do point naturally. My buddy feels like he was hosed and I agree with him. This "big shot breeder" was of no help at all and stopped returning phone calls.:mad: Sure glad it wasnt my 2K $$$$$$$$$$$$.

I like Labs, just like all breeds. Have hunted over a bunch of good ones in the past five decades.They all have their good points and fans.

But if you have to train a Lab, or any dog for that matter, to "stop" on the scent of a bird with a caged bird and a check cord and ecollar. That's a pitiful excuse for a pointing dog. I can train a Pekingese to to that!!:p LOLLOLLOL

NB
 
Pl training

If anyone is interested they can see several outstanding pointing lab photos and flash videos on the following site

In this thread someone asked about training resources for pointing labs. I know where there is a series of DVD's about to come out shortly. Email me and I can tell you where to go to find out more about them.

As with all breeds there are some good , bad and ugly. Training is as much of a factor as the genetics for training a PL or any breed for that matter. There is no question that these can be exceptional dogs for hunting virtually anything with wings on them. I have trained hundreds of them.

Breeding does make a difference and you have to do your homework to find a good dog. They are out there for those that are willing to find them.

Happy Holidays,

Gary

PRG
 
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I'd agree with what others said about the pointing gene being less consistent in pointing labs than in true pointing breeds. When I got my PL, I hoped that she'd point, but would've been happy with a good flushing dog. If you'll be disappointed if the dog doesn't point, don't get a PL.

I'd also recommend the Knutson book. I like the technique recommended in the book because it brings out the natural pointing instinct, rather than training the dog to point. Too many PLs, including some PLs with lots of titles, have basically been trained to point whenever they hit bird scent. This doesn't work on wild pheasants, though it works fine at APLA trials. You need your dog to pin birds down. My dog will follow the scent of a running bird until the bird flushes or holds. If she hits a pheasant that holds or a covey of quail, she will point. If the pheasants won't hold, she won't let them run off while she stands there like a robot. If you use the same techniques that are used with traditional pointing breeds, your PL will most likely go on point every time it hits bird scent, making it constantly go on unproductive points when pheasant hunting.
 
Natty Bumpo said:
Egggggzzzzzactly.

I have a hunting buddy who paid an outlandish sum ( $2000) for an 8 wk old Pointing Lab puppy from one of the biggest name PL kennels in the Midwest. I know for a fact, because I've hunted with that dog every year and watched him in RGS trials every year, that dog rarely if ever, points anything. Further, I'm told less than 25% of PL puppies ever do point naturally. My buddy feels like he was hosed and I agree with him. This "big shot breeder" was of no help at all and stopped returning phone calls.:mad: Sure glad it wasnt my 2K $$$$$$$$$$$$.

I like Labs, just like all breeds. Have hunted over a bunch of good ones in the past five decades.They all have their good points and fans.

But if you have to train a Lab, or any dog for that matter, to "stop" on the scent of a bird with a caged bird and a check cord and ecollar. That's a pitiful excuse for a pointing dog. I can train a Pekingese to to that!!:p LOLLOLLOL

NB
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One thing I noticed about pointing labs is that when they play they point each other. Here's an eight month old pup that is pointing his sister. This male is very easy going and likes to hang close. Hard to believe some one would pay 2 grand for a lab that doesn't point. You can have Lee Harvey for $500 and I'll guarantee he points. That's a $1500 dollar savings. Of course he is sight pointing but, from my experience this is a very strong indicator that he'll point birds. I hope to get some birds in a week or 2 and have some fun with him. Happy hunting.
 
I have a pointing lab, but bought him for the complete dog, not pointing ability. I think some people are capitalizing on the known pointing bloodlines & selling as"pointing".
 
Pointing Labs

There are some exceptional Pointing Labs out there. Unfortunately there are also some breeders just trying to make a buck. Nothing new, happens with all breeds.

Something to keep in mind is when you get a pup you have a clean slate. You also have a huge influence on them including behavior. Most of the time if you see a problem in your dog all you have to do is go to the bathroom and look in the mirror. You are the source more often than not. It is not like you get a manual with your dog on how to be the perfect owner/handler/trainer. It takes time and diligent thoughtful effort to get good at it. What I will tell all of you is that it is worth the effort.

For you that are looking for a new training resource where you can actually see these dogs being trained by demonstration there is now a DVD set that has five and a half hours of instruction. These are dogs learning the concepts for the first time. One of the issues with many training videos is that they show you a dog that already has the concepts down. They don't show you the real world and the things that can happen or how to deal with them. The other issue is they just give you some methods. That is fine in the ideal world but what happens when things are less than idea, which is most of the time? That is where you need to learn how to think and communicate like a dog. 95% of the videos don't go into that.

You will never become a really good team with your dog until you learn how to think and can communicate like a dog. That is when you will also begin to understand why when and how to teach them the way they learn. If all you do is paint by numbers ( methods) you wont be able to understand how to solve problems when they come up. Just some input on how to become better trainers, handlers and team leaders.

I dont think I can put a link on here, at least I received a message I have to have permission. I am not sure how to do that. I'm going to play by the rules of the forum and site. You can search for my site though and should be able to find it.

Good luck to all training.

Gary

PRG
 
Poudre: Looks like Pepper is pretty staunch when she's "Standing birds"!:rolleyes:

Natty: Perhaps you should call George Hickox and some others to inform them what a scam they run making so much money training all those pointers that don't need any training.:cool:

As for me, I train routinely with an EP guy and Pudel Pointer guy. I guess they only come out to give me and my little PL some moral support...being they evidently don't need any training. Oh well, at least my little girl "stands birds" with enough intensity that you need a hammer to drive a pin up her a....:eek:
 
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