Advice on a hard mouth?

Ranger Rick

Ranger Rick

Member
My 1-1/2 year old setter is coming along nicely. I worked him on planted quail late summer. As he got staunch on point, I started shooting them for him. He retrieved enthusiastically. On to the season and wild birds. Grouse population is down and we've only nailed one. Woodcock are plentiful and we've been getting plenty. He's been mopping them up and this past weekend he put on a pointing clinic for my brothers.

At the beginning of the season he was retrieving with coaxing. Then he spit one out mid-retrieve. Picked up the next one that was very much alive and it proceeded to beat him about the face with it's wings. He dropped it and sat next to it, as if to say "WTF is that?". Next bird was flapping on the ground, he pounced and I heard a "crunch". Since then he's been pretty hard on the birds and even protective, not wanting to give them to me and not retrieving. This past weekend I think he would have eaten a couple of them if I hadn't intervened. Any advice?
 
unfortunately you are dealing with two separate issues
one, not wanting to retrieve without coaxing
two, not wanting to give the bird up

this doesn't necessarily make for a "hard mouthed" dog but it could be the start if you don't get things squared away

I am sure most everyone will say force fetch

but I'd say, take a few steps backwards to the point where you were having success with the quail; start there and see what happens

use a checkcord, when the pup retrieves immediately "reel" him in, don't give him anytime to think, just get him back to you as quickly as practical, this should not be a tug-of-war but there should a sense of urgency

and I know you don't want to hear it but my advice is don't hunt your dog until you resolve these issues
 
beaker is right. You need to get him to a trainer and put through a trained retrieve (force fetch) program. If done properly that should take care of both issues.

I'm kind of surprised he was affected by the beating wings of a woodcock. He'd be in real trouble with a live pheasant! :) Just joking. spend the money on a good trainer and a force fetch program you will never regret it. I know from experience.
 
FF would be one way out if all else fails. Yes you could take steps back and not rush. But at his age your kinda past the point of real adolescent learning. So FF may be the ticket. But if you don't know don't do it. get it done by someone who knows as much as me:D. I have tried to help people do it via email phone etc. and they had trouble. Only to find out they skipped steps or rushed them. That will not work, Period.... It needs to be whole and complete.. We have a fella here now that has a young dog like yours that we simply did quick pick up drills with frozen pigeons. He was killing every bird, bloody mess type stuff. 2 sessions we were able to have live deliveries. You just don't know. He wanted to rush back to the field. I suggested NO!. He will not trial the dog till spring now, (a cocker.) So what is your big hurry, Taaakkkkeee Yooouuurrrr Tiiimmmmeee, I said. Do this same stuff for another month at least. NO misbehavior can be fixed in one or two sessions.I would seek out someone who knows what they are doing. And for sure get him off live birds untill fixed. Good luck
 
I would like to add a question here since I have some similar issues but my dog is only 9 months old. Everyone says don't put them on live birds till you know the problem is fixed but that is the only way you will know for sure. The dog obviously will not react the same with a dummy or wing than with a real live bird. Even a dead bird is going to be different for the dog than a wounded bird. I feel like you can do all the work in the world but until the dog works with real birds you wont know. Do you suggest a progression from the dummy, to winged or scented dummy, and work up to the live bird?
 
I'm torn here, too. We're in the middle of hunting season, with this weekend being a trip to Iowa for pheasants, which in effect about ends my season. I'm going to get criticized here, but I'm not going to stop hunting now and cancel my Iowa trip.

I throw dummies for him and he retrieves enthusiastically, but sometimes still wants to do the puppy keep away game. He'll bring it to me, then turn away when I reach out.

We've gone through this progression of dummy, to quail that he retrieved to hand, to woodcock he didn't seem to want to pick up but retrieved them, now to chewing on them and not wanting to retrieve them to me. Part of me wants to believe it has something to do with the woodcock, which a lot of dogs do not like to retrieve. But there's also a part of me that senses this bloodlust that will only be corrected by retrieve training.

From what I'm gathering here and what I already suspected is that I'll need to go through a full retrieve training with him. He's not going to do it naturally.
 
I wouldn't cancel your trip because your dog is having some retrieving issues. The trip might be good for him and if not there is still plenty of time after the season to do a FF program.

Your problem is not all too different from the one I had with my Brittany at that age. She is an enthusiastic retrieve and everything I would throw for her in the yard she would bring to my side and wait until I told her to "Give". However, when I shot a bird in the field, whether it was hunting or in a field trial, she would run to the bird pick it up and come running directly back, then drop it about 6-10 feet from me. Sometimes I could encourage her to pick it up and bring it closer and other not. I sent her back to her breeder/trainer for a month of FF. I get her back and I have the same problem. While practicing in the yard or even the field she would bring bumpers, frozen birds and other dead birds to hand but not ones I shot. The trainer had used a "toe hitch" in the FF program but did not over lay the training with an e-collar. Thus I had no way to enforce the finished retrieve in the field. So off to another trainer for 4 weeks. He took her back through the FF program and then finished by using the e-collar so I had a way to enforce it if she dropped them short in the field. I only had to correct her a couple times in the field with the e-collar and now I have a dog that brings everything to hand.

I highly recommend spending the money on a good, reputable trainer and have your dog trained to retrieve. That way they learn there is no other option. No matter what they are retrieving. Last month in a field trial I blew up a quail real bad. Basically a head and a string of guts. Most dogs will balk at retrieving something like that but she brought it to me. The other handlers and judges were impressed.

You can try the FF yourself but I did that and found I just couldn't do it properly. I'm very glad I found a good trainer.
 
A lot of people say a natural retriever will let you down at some point. I've had a couple that did a good job, without any more work that playing fetch in the yard. But my last several dogs have not retrieved. Setters are not known to be strong retrievers, but this guy had me excited in the early going. I thought I was going to have a decent retriever. In the field with a dummy if he was messing around I would whistle command him to come and he'd bring the dummy along. In the woods, while messing around mouthing a woodcock I tried whistle command to come and he came, but without it.

In the early hunting, the first birds shot he would lick and mouth, but didn't seem to want to pick them up. He then retrieved one for me. The next one he forcibly spit out about 10' from me. I mean "patooey!!!", as if "Man that tasted like sh!t". Then came the flapping birds and was then quickly downhill.

At this point in time he's doing everything else really well. He handles well and hunts hard, is really excited about it, having fun. He's staunch on point. He's able to figure it out on his own when there's a running bird, relocate and re-establish point. He's great at hunting dead, knows what "dead bird" means and is probably better at finding a dead woodcock he didn't see drop, than my last 3 dogs. All that's lacking now is retrieving them to me and not being so hard on some of them.

Being young, I think he also gets overexcited until he's winded [about an hour into a hunt] and it's a couple of those early birds that he's mauled.

Another recommended the Tri-Tronics video on retrieve training. I'm going to check that out and set forward a plan for this coming spring.
 
Could it possibly be he just doesn't like woodcock? I have little experience with woodcock but have read of reliable retrievers just refusing them.

I would not cancel the season, but I would definitely be careful not to put any pressure on him during the pheasant hunt, always default to making sure the dog has "Happy Times". As in the famous song, WWDD (What Wold Delmar Do)
 
Try a stiff scrub brush for retrieves. If that doesn't work get a wire scrub brush. Your dog isn't going to bite hard on that more than once.
 
i see this is an ol thread,curious as to the out come?
my 2 cents
i like the idea of getting professional help.retreive to hand is pretty important.supposed to be harder to teach as the dog gets progressively older
if i were to try and quantify it,retreive to hand is the top or last 15% of the education needed
in otherwords,it easy to get the dog pointing,obeying,etc
its just really important that the dogs can pick up downed game across an obstacle,water for instance.not saying I know how to do it but i know there's gotta be some one that does
 
With my new pup I am taking the advice of someone who bred llewellins for more than 40 years.

"Start the game and never stop" We play fetch everyday and I'm not going to stop with my pup. When he tries to get me to chase him the game is over for now. Usually, after running off and displaying his prize, he pops back up and forces his toy on me to throw again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top