Retrieve problem

S

springerfan

New member
I have a 1-1/2 year old Springer. Very birdy, lots of drive. This is his second year hunting, all on pen raised birds that get released before the season.

Today, he flushed a rooster, that I dropped and it landed in some short grass, still alive. The bird took off running, and he ran it down and tackled it. Then he got up and started hunting again. Rooster ran off, and We couldn’t find it again.

This seems to be his MO this year, as he has left a couple other birds lay after they have been shot.

I sent him to a trainer this spring to have him force fetched, but the trainer couldn’t work with him. Dog got very skittish in the trainers kennel, and would cower in the corner of the pen.

Any suggestions? I have an older dog, that has been forced, maybe I need to always hunt them together and hope he “gets it” at some point?
 
Sometimes a little competition will help, but it can also make it worse if he just let's the other dog do the retrieving. Personally, I would look for another trainer to take him to for Force Fetch. But you will have to wait until after the hunting season. Where are you located?
 
I know it might be a bit of a drive for you but I would recommend you consider taking him to Morgan Haglin at Pine Shadows Springers by Brainerd, Minnesota. http://www.pineshadows.com/ They know Springers. Some years ago I took a Brittany to Morgan to fix some retrieving issues and he did a great job.
 
No, hunt him alone until he gets it solid. And it may not have to result in force fetching. Here's something to try DURING the season, next time you're out. This worked for me & very easily. Not the same exact problem, but similar. Let's assume he loves fetching in water. Throw a dead pheasant into some open water (not choked with cattails). When he fetches it, make a HUGE deal out of it. Praise him beyond belief. Then do it a few more times in the water. Then in the grass. Back to the water. Over there. Over there. In some cattails. Make a game out of it & he'll love it. Lay praise on thick every time. Then on the next few birds encountered while actually hunting, DON'T praise him if he doesn't retrieve it. Throw the bird until he retrieves it, then praise. Each throw, of course, has to be accompanied by "fetch", "dead", or whatever command you use. I think he'll get it.
 
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Sounds like another spaniel that would rather hunt than retrieve. Pretty common problem. Most trainers I know recommend you do many marks and retrieving drills and get the pup addicted to the retrieve before letting the pup do too much hunting as this type of problem tends to show up easily in dogs with a lot of hunt in them.
If it was me I would take him away from hunting and work on retrieving until he loved retrieving as much as he does hunting.
Getting the help of a pro is always good advice.
 
My dog Buzz has had plenty of hunt in him from day one. His deal wasn't that he'd rather hunt than retrieve, but when my older dog Walt was still around, the 2 of us had accidentally taught Buzz NOT to retrieve. So after Walt died, Buzz would find downed birds just fine & just sit next to them, smiling. In heavy cover, I'd have to stop & listen for the panting to find my dog & bird. There were times, then, when I'd reach down to grab the bird & it would run off & Buzz would have to re-find him again. This went on for 3 years & I thought it was just our lot in life. We were shooting plenty & losing almost none, so I praised him every time it happened, further ingraining that sitting by the bird was exactly what I wanted. Tried force fetch - neither of us responded well to it. Then the "throw it in the water" thing dawned on me because he LOVES, LOVES, LOVES water. We played the game I described once, for about 20 minutes (previous post). Then the next 2 or 3 birds, he THOUGHT about picking up, but just couldn't bring himself to do it until I threw the bird. On about the 4th bird, after MUCH encouragement from me, he retrieved it. And from that day on, he's been a really solid retriever. I like to think I have spaniels all figured out, but I could've just been lucky. But, it made sense to me at the time, & apparently to at least 1 springer.
 
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I tried the water retrieve idea, He love retrieving a tennis ball in the water, no interest in the pheasant. He would jump in, swim to the pheasant, grab it, then let it go.
 
This was written by a good friend of mine who goes by "GoneHunting" hes a very experienced retriever trainer and a good guy if somewhat gruff lol

I have a great deal of respect for his ability and knowledge its not a real FORCE program its a program for average guys to use

heres the method he wrote up for me follow it and your dog will be forever cured

Hope this helps cut and paste it and print it so you can have it when you need it


Take a plank (2x10 or equivalent size plywood strip 8' long) and place it between two chairs. Many people make a regular bench, but for one dog it would be a waste of your time and money. Don't worry if pup doens't want to jump up on the bench; just pick him up and plunk him down there. Have a 1" collar and a leash on him.

You'll hold the lead in your left hand with about 1' of slack in it. Have a 1" wooden dowel in your left hand. I really like the one the dog supply houses sell because it's rough and kind of non slip. With your left hand, pinch the dogs upper gums against his canine teeth, say fetch, and when he opens up, PULL UP ON HIS LIPS to clear them of the canines and place the dowel in his mouth. With your right hand tap, not beat, under his chin to keep his nose pointed up and command "hold". Don't let him spit it out at first. If he gets beligerant, give him a light cuff and tell him NO, HOLD!. Make him sit quietly, nose in the air, and hold it. Now say DROP and remove it from his mouth. Do it again. And again and again and again until when you touch his lips and say "fetch", he opens up, takes the dowell, and quietly hold it, either sitting or standing. When he understands the drill, start tapping the dowel. You're daring him to drop it. If he does, pick it up, pinch his gums, and put it back it. He only drops when you tell him to, not when he wants to.

Before you start this, the dog should be totally obedience trained. When he does this perfectly, get him off the bench. Sit him on the ground by your side, hold the dowell in front of his nose and command "fetch". He won't understand and you'll have to start all over again with him on the ground. A dog is a place driven animal and has to learn commands in anew each time you change training places@ the bench, the yard, the field. Now when he starts taking and holding it without a problem, command "drop". He won't unless you pull it out of his mouth. Gently pivot your let toe over his right paw, softly step down, and command drop. He will. A dog's paw's are very tender so never, ever, get mad and stomp on them. Do this drill until the dog takes the dowel on command, holds it on command, and drops it IN YOUR HAND on command.

Now we have to get him moving. Command fetch, hold, and then heel. He'll imediately spit it out. Pick it up, pinch his gums, say fetch and heel him again. You'll eventuall win. He'll get mad, you'll get mad, but persevere and you'll be rewarded. When you can walk him at heel and he doesn't drop it, proceed to the next step. You guessed it; fetch, hold but now SIT. Walk 6' away from him, and command here or heel. A retriever should come to heel by coming to your left side, turning to his left, and sitting by your side, facing forward, holding the dowel firmly. When he does these drills enerringly, next step.

Now switch him to a training bumper and do it all over again.

He's nearly done now. Now we'll get him retrieving. Make it fun but you'll have to reinforce the drills. Have him on a 30' CC. Whoop it up and throw out a bumper, sending him immediately. As SOON As, The Very Instant, he picks it up, say HOLD and reel him gently in. You guessed it. If he spits it out, calmly walk out, and it's fetch, hold, heel, drop. This can take a long time since it is in no way a real force program. The only pressure really applied is the gum pinch. That's about it. When he's done on bumpers, you'll have to re-do it on birds. Repetition, repetition, repetition. Patience, patience, patience.
 
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springerfan said:
I have a 1-1/2 year old Springer. Very birdy, lots of drive. This is his second year hunting, all on pen raised birds that get released before the season.

Today, he flushed a rooster, that I dropped and it landed in some short grass, still alive. The bird took off running, and he ran it down and tackled it. Then he got up and started hunting again. Rooster ran off, and We couldn’t find it again.

This seems to be his MO this year, as he has left a couple other birds lay after they have been shot.

I sent him to a trainer this spring to have him force fetched, but the trainer couldn’t work with him. Dog got very skittish in the trainers kennel, and would cower in the corner of the pen.

Any suggestions? I have an older dog, that has been forced, maybe I need to always hunt them together and hope he “gets it” at some point?
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FF isn't some big some big scary thing. I would try another trainer, not all dogs mesh with every trainer. The good trainers can adapt to any dog, Zeb suggested Morgan Haglin. I wouldnt know Morgan if he walked in the room but he has a solid reputation around here.
I will add that maybe and this is a big maybe tightening up his obedience could help. If recall is perfect a quick, firm "here" when he grabs the bird might get you a retrieve. More likely he will just come back to you without the bird
 
I’d find a competent, well known, and accomplished retriever trainer to take him to. I’d say the trainer you had him with didn’t know what he was doing. Dog needs force fetched and lots of marks. Force fetch is MUCH more than just a conditioned retrieve. It teaches a dog how to turn pressure off and when done correctly the dog is retrieving because he HAS to and not because he just wants to. In turn he will be doing almost all he does for you and not solely for himself.

People look at FF as cruel and not needed. You could teach just “hold” but when you need that dog to make a retrieve that he doesn’t want to your right back to where you are now. And force fetching is done at the dogs pace. Anyone who says they can force fetch a dog in X amount time you need to run away from. All dogs progress at different speeds. Could take a month could take 3 months. It’s complete when it’s complete.

Just my personal opinion.
 
Gatzby said:
I will add that maybe and this is a big maybe tightening up his obedience could help. If recall is perfect a quick, firm "here" when he grabs the bird might get you a retrieve. More likely he will just come back to you without the bird
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I think you’re right; he’ll likely just drop the bird & come back.

I still think the “bird in the water trick” might work with this one if he’s sufficiently fired up for a game of fetch ahead of time. Maybe start w/ a ball/toy & then throw a bird. And do this in the field during a hunt (not at the park) so you can throw the next bird, and the next bird, if he doesn’t retrieve right away. With Buzz it took some throwing the bird on land then, too, and a TON of encouragement, but he got it & he got it quick. About 3-4 birds was all it took to go from “I won’t pick up a pheasant” (4 seasons worth) to being a VERY solid retriever. The aggression in his retrieves continues to increase into his 3rd season as a retriever. (caveat: Buzz is, by nature, VERY eager to please.)

It almost sounds to me like this dog doesn’t really, REALLY know what “fetch” means. Or if he does, that it’s “OK” to fetch a pheasant. To me & my dogs, it means, “Go get that thing & bring it to me until I say drop.” My experience (limited as it is) has been that that definition can be taught without force fetch. Which leads me to a question. As I consider the concept of FF (I’m no expert), I wonder how much of it is simply teaching the MEANING of “fetch”. I get that the idea is to teach the dog that his JOB is to fetch, and that after he understands his job, he’ll grow to love it. I get that most pros FF & that it’s basically proven that FFed dogs are considered to be more reliable fetchers. But while the RESULT of FF is reliability, is it really teaching reliability? Or is it just teaching, reiterating & reinforcing the meaning?

Also, similarly to the idea that “sit” includes “stay” & therefore some guys don’t teach “stay” (not saying I agree with this), doesn’t “fetch” include “hold”? I’ve never had an instance where “fetch” by itself didn’t suffice, whether it was retrieving, or the dog sitting by my side holding something, or him at heel, carrying something. To my dogs & me, “fetch” doesn’t end until I say “drop” (so I guess it includes “hold”). (another caveat: I do no field trials or competitions of any sort. Just family fun & pretty serious pheasant hunting.)

Does that make sense, or have I thoroughly confused everyone?
 
I will again make the suggestion to take your dog to Morgan Haglin with Pine Shadows Kennel by Brainerd, MN. http://www.pineshadows.com/ They have been raising and training Springers for over 40 years and are an Orvis Endorsed Hunting Dog Breeder. I'm sure they have seen all conditions and situations in training and would know how to work with your dog. At a minimum give them a call and visit with them. We can offer up all kinds of advice on this site but putting your dog in the hands of a good qualified and competent trainer is the best solution.
 
Dakotazeb said:
I will again make the suggestion to take your dog to Morgan Haglin with Pine Shadows Kennel by Brainerd, MN. http://www.pineshadows.com/ They have been raising and training Springers for over 40 years and are an Orvis Endorsed Hunting Dog Breeder. I'm sure they have seen all conditions and situations in training and would know how to work with your dog. At a minimum give them a call and visit with them. We can offer up all kinds of advice on this site but putting your dog in the hands of a good qualified and competent trainer is the best solution.
Click to expand...

Agreed. If nothing seems to be working, then seeking out as much of the best info possible is what you should do. Sounds like Haglin would be a great place to start, as he's probably experienced as many dog/trainer instances as anyone. After hearing what you want & what you're experiencing, sounds like he'd know at least 1 good approach to a solution.
 
Thanks for the instructions. I have three GWP's that need time on the table. I trained my dogs for the field but their retrieving skills are sub par.
 
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