Poor Delivery/Hold from Lab

S

steelbull85

New member
I'm hoping someone can help me out and tell me whether my plan is a good one and maybe provide some advice too.

I have a 14 month old lab who I have trained myself. That being said I am not a pro. She is pretty well trained for upland hunting, but the one thing I'm really struggling with is her delivery and hold. I can get her to front finish and finish at heel with an object in her mouth, but her delivery is really weak. She holds the object with just enough pressure that it won't fall out, but bounces around in her mouth. When she is tired from training, the object (bumper/bird) will fall out when she is back to me. I know I need to firm up her hold otherwise I"m going to lose birds in the field. She will always retrieve, so that isn't an issue. The issue is just the delivery/hold.

Here is the problem. She is a really soft dog. I took her to a trainer for advice and he said "she is softer than a stick of butter in July". He said it really poses a challenge because I have to be careful with the amount of pressure that I apply, otherwise she will quit.

So my plan is to use a pinch collar and do light pressure on/pressure off with objects. I plan to start with dowel rods, move to paint rollers, then bumpers, then ultimately birds. The one thing I am unsure of is, how do I apply pressure if she is holding the object but has a weak hold? I don't want her to think having an object in her mouth is bad. Again, she does great picking up objects and having them in her mouth, but she is sloppy with her hold and delivery. Thanks in advance for the help.
 
Just curious, what happens when she retrieves birds? How does it differ with dead birds vs clipwings vs trapped fliers?

It's hard to believe a well bred retriever would leave a bird...
 
I believe they should all be force fetched but I have had one particular dog that I just did a solid hold program without force fetch because he was soft. So that is something to consider.

How is your dog on a clipped wing pigeon? Maybe that would instill more prey drive and a more aggressive hold.
 
Same thing happens with birds. She retrieves them, and goes after them at 100mph but her delivery and hold is weak. I have not tried a clipped wing as I have trouble with training locations due to where I live. I agree that I should try that to see if it increases her aggressiveness and hold technique.

What did your advanced hold program consist of if you don't mind me asking? How long did it take you to get your dog through it?
 
Could you make a video and post it?

There's another possibility but it's not worth mentioning until it is. But we could also get an idea of the extent of the problem.
 
steelbull85 said:
Same thing happens with birds. She retrieves them, and goes after them at 100mph but her delivery and hold is weak. I have not tried a clipped wing as I have trouble with training locations due to where I live. I agree that I should try that to see if it increases her aggressiveness and hold technique.

What did your advanced hold program consist of if you don't mind me asking? How long did it take you to get your dog through it?
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Just a long slow easy paced training of hold for about 6 weeks. Just general hold drills with dummies birds, dowels, pop cans, etc. Doing obedience drills, going on walks, jumping in the back of the truck etc all holding the dummy. If he dropped it I just immediately opened his mouth and put it back in commanding fetch without any force. I will add that he did deliver well naturally so this may or may not work for your dog.
 
"When she is tired of training"

Shorter, more frequent training? Shorter, less frequent training?

Are you always calm? About a third of my britts were/are soft. When they do something I like during training I will get down to their level and celebrate.

Are you using the dog for waterfowl?
 
To answer a bunch of the questions above. I typically do two training sessions a day between 10-20 minutes long. I am not worried about hunt tests, just hunting and making sure we don't lose birds. I will be using her for both upland (pheasants) and waterfowl.

Below is a link to two videos I took this evening. There are a couple videos on my page from tonight that you can view. Please remember I'm not an expert and this is the first dog I've trained, so I know there is much that I can improve on. As you can see her drive to retrieve is not an issue, but her hold is troublesome. I apologize for the poor quality, for some reason I couldn't get them to upload in HD. I hope this helps explain what I was talking about.

http://youtu.be/1KgZyudIaZw

http://youtu.be/zeqW3pHXjjM
 
Wow, I'll be honest, because of your descriptions, I thought it would be a lot worse. It didn't seem like much when the dog was returning to you, IMO. I also noticed that you were eager to take the bumper/bird from her, at least in these videos. I wonder how much that contributes to the problem, especially if she knows the routine involves giving up the bird right away... She may be anticipating that.

If you are worried about FF being too harsh, I think hold and hold & heel could help. Sometimes with my dog I'll lean down, reach for the dummy, tap it, but not grab or say "give." That helps when she's holding loosely. But on birds she does not let them hang loose unless she's panting really hard.

There are FF programs for softer dogs... Look at "Hup: Training Flushing Spaniels the American Way" by James Spencer. He describes a gentler program. Seemed to work for my "soft" spaniel. By soft I mean she's sensitive to my emotions and learns quickly. I worked/work hard to be level with her because even a stern word makes her cower. If that's like your dog, use it! It means she's smart and picks up on cues, and will respond to positive emotions as well. Good luck!
 
At 14 month's the dog seems to be doing well and a soft mouth is a good thing; too many dogs get into the habit of holding too tight or refusing to "drop" the bird and want to prance around - show off.

My Golden is a show - off, with a training dummy or a bird. I just ignore him and he gives it up. He doesn't pierce the breast of a pheasant . And he doesn't give up on cripples...he's just lookin for love!

Bottom line: don't we want our dogs to find the bird, pick it up and return...without taking a bite out of the bird?

Keep up your good work. Looks like a fine dog that loves to retrieve!
 
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Nothing at all wrong with that dog. Only problem I see is you leaning over and grapping at the bumper. Probably makes her nervous. Let her hold that dummy and prance around it. Do obedience with hold. Looks like a great dog. Relax and so will your dog.
 
Thanks for the advice and the boost of confidence. I started working with her more tonight and did not lean over and give the impression that I was giong to take the bumper immediately. By the end of the 15 min training session, she wasn't juggling the bumper as much in her mouth and was holding it more firm/steady. I think I'll be alright.

When I went to see a trainer for advice on firming up a few things, he actually said something similar to what you all have mentioned. He basically said that Sadie knew what to do, but that my actions/motions/timing of commands were confusing her. He did the same field work with her that I did, but got much better results because his actions and commands were clear and she could easily understand what he wanted. I guess it goes to show that sometimes the trainer needs more training than the trainee.

Thanks again, and I'll keep you posted on the progress :cheers:
 
I didn't watch the videos so I may be way off. One of my dogs was dropped twice at the master level for sloppy hold. I was never able to duplicate this in training. A Very skilled amateur suggested to me that I slow down and bend at the knees when taking the bird versus leaning over the dog. We clicked off the next three master tests in a row for his title.
 
david0311

westksbowhunter said:
Nothing at all wrong with that dog. Only problem I see is you leaning over and grapping at the bumper. Probably makes her nervous. Let her hold that dummy and prance around it. Do obedience with hold. Looks like a great dog. Relax and so will your dog.
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X-2 nothing wrong with that dog at all--this post and couple previous point out the issue and give good/excellent advice--

slow down on the take--good luck--:cheers:
 
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