How to judge a good bird dog?

C

cyclonenation10

Active member
Just throwing this out there for some discussion, but how do you judge a good bird dog?

Personally, I've always hunted with Golden Retrievers (more recently the English Cream/Show breed). Many say they can't hunt, and I disagree. I'm convinced that nearly any dog will eventually hunt, regardless of any training, simply by getting the dog out frequently on birds. For example, my female has absolutely no hunting pedigree, runs like a show dog, and is the laziest (but also smartest) dog that I've ever owned. As a puppy, and to this day, she won't even flinch at the sight of a thrown tennis ball, pheasant dummy, cat, or anything. However, get her in the pheasant field and she has a motor that will not stop and is a joy to hunt with. She listens, stays close, and will hunt any cover in a very methodical way. She's had well over 250 wild birds shot over her and is 5 years old. Her main downfall - she rarely retrieves to hand except on certain occasions. Despite that, she never loses a bird and will find and catch a cripple as good as any dog I've seen - she just falls short on the actual retrieve part. I've hunted her with all sorts of different dogs with much better pedigrees (many of which have had thousands of dollars spent on formal training)and it never fails that by the end of the day it's usually a consensus agreement that she is as good or better than any other dog in the bunch, and also listens much better, providing a much more enjoyable experience. On the other hand I've got a male who is a very committed retriever, bringing birds to hand every time. He doesn't have quite the hunting motor, despite being much more high strung outside of the field. I thoroughly enjoy hunting with each dog, and wish I could combine the hunting/temperament of my female with the retrieving drive of my male (and have a near perfect hunting dog). While each is far from perfect, we kill tons of birds, many of which are on public ground each and every year. If it was a competition (it's not), and the goal was simply to kill birds, I would take either one of these two over just about every other dog I've ever hunted with. However, if you entered them in some sort of field trial, where every little thing is judged, I'm sure they'd get blown out of the water.

For me, I want to have a dog that's going to help me kill birds and that enjoys the hunting/companionship as much as I do. Also, I want a great house dog and companion for the other 9 months of the season that I can trust around anyone and leave alone in the house without a worry in the world. Whether they check each and every box (retreive to hand, etc.) doesn't really matter to me. We have fun, kill lots of birds, and I don't believe we leave much on the table. I think I could spend a lot of money on a dog bred purely for hunting such as a GSP, Brittany, etc. and I wouldn't kill any more birds that I do now (with the added downside of a dog that is way to springy/high strung for my liking in and out of the field). I've got the luxury of a flexible work schedule that allows me to get out hunting 40-50 x throughout the course of the season, so these dogs have the benefit of being on birds ALOT. I do next to nothing as far as field training, other than basic obedience and trust (I know they are never going to run off, chase a deer, etc.). Outside of that, it's all just getting them hunting. If I didn't get out near as much, I'm sure it may be worth getting more of a purebred hunting dog with more natural pedigree.

This leads me to my question.. how do you judge a good hunting dog? In my case, I very much have a "good enough" mindset
 
I am qualified to comment here.I have hunted with goldens a lot. My dad's goldens are family dogs,with absolutely no training.They hunted 6 days a year.Thats it.If they had hunted more, they would have been better. Goldens are pretty mello.I like yellow labs, but I've hunted with Brits, e setters, gwp. Gsp, pointer, English Springer spaniel. You are spot on.Its time in the field.All you need to do, is basic training, they will hunt birds.I hunted with a German shepherd that was good.He retrieved and everything. His nose was not great.He was 1/4 black lab. He figured it out, after watching my dog.Ive only owned one lab that retrieves to hand.The one I have now.First and foremost, they are family dogs, like yours.
 
I want a dog that listens to me and doesn't hunt for herself/himself. We've had dogs that go to find birds as if they are on their own, not as if they are working with me. Those dogs (referring to when I was growing up) nearly all were kenneled--"livestock" more than pets. My experience with my current lab is different. I got her at 9 months old and took her everywhere with me: walking, errands, etc. She fetches for me and anyone else who throws something for her. Now at 4 years old she has a great hunting drive AND stays tight (10-30 yards) unless she gets a hot scent or a runner. Retrieving is very much a work in progress. We missed most of two seasons due to my broken ankle and then family obligations; she just hasn't seen enough birds dropped to fully get the idea. I am working with a trainer on live quail and pigeons and she's made great strides but we haven't fully connected to pheasants.

Good enough? Yes. She is a pleasure to watch hunt birds and she is a total lap dog at home.
 
I have 2 Labs--a 12 year old Chocolate that has "been there, done that" on both ducks and pheasants. He'd never win a field trial but has a good nose, retrieves to hand, is great on cripples and has strong prey drive. He is just now beginning to slow down on the stamina end, so a year ago I got a yellow Lab male, he has energy to burn, prey drive off the charts, already retrieves to hand and he may just turn out to be the best dog I've had; comes when called, good house dog even if he is a bit rambunctious. So far he's retrieved about 30 pheasants and nearly that many ducks, mostly mallards. What I really love about him is , he never quits on a bird. He'll search till he finds it and he has an extremely high desire to be hunting. I look forward to (hopefully) the next 10 years or so with him. What I want is a good "meat dog" and looks like he'll fill the bill.
 
It would be interesting to get our dogs perspective on how they judge a good human hunter...
Probably they would consider how often we miss lay ups?
Thank goodness they stick with us even on bad shooting days, 85 degree days, 5 degree days.
 
A good bird dog finds pheasants, alive, dead and everything in between. They can find the birds in any sort of cover and when they know there's a bird nearby, the handler knows it too. A good bird dog doesn't have an off switch in the field and is typically reluctant to return to the truck. Even when they're beat after a long day, they'll happily jump into the next field if we ask them to. Like Dr. Drew said, a good dog is one that hunts with the handler. I've seen some dogs that could find pheasants, but would take off and flush the bird out of gun range. A good dog is cognizant of the hunter. That isn't to say they don't ever get away. It happens and I almost always blame the rooster. ;)

For me personally, a good bird dog is never aggressive toward people or other dogs.
 
drdrewdog said:
I want a dog that listens to me and doesn't hunt for herself/himself. We've had dogs that go to find birds as if they are on their own, not as if they are working with me. Those dogs (referring to when I was growing up) nearly all were kenneled--"livestock" more than pets. My experience with my current lab is different. I got her at 9 months old and took her everywhere with me: walking, errands, etc. She fetches for me and anyone else who throws something for her. Now at 4 years old she has a great hunting drive AND stays tight (10-30 yards) unless she gets a hot scent or a runner. Retrieving is very much a work in progress. We missed most of two seasons due to my broken ankle and then family obligations; she just hasn't seen enough birds dropped to fully get the idea. I am working with a trainer on live quail and pigeons and she's made great strides but we haven't fully connected to pheasants.

Good enough? Yes. She is a pleasure to watch hunt birds and she is a total lap dog at home.
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My lab just retrieves anything, and hands it to me.I didn't train her to do it.She won't retrieve a Turkey, but she will flush them, and you can shoot them on the wing, like a pheasant .
 
dakotasj said:
It would be interesting to get our dogs perspective on how they judge a good human hunter...
Probably they would consider how often we miss lay ups?
Thank goodness they stick with us even on bad shooting days, 85 degree days, 5 degree days.
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I think a hunter needs to shoot 50% on pheasants. That's what a dog expects.99% on Turkey. They have to work extremely hard, in Montana.
 
JMO BUT—
I believe you above posters are missing one of the great joys of dog ownership—the training -and time spent with your dogs -watching them progress—as well as you— into becoming a first rate-hunter-companion—and possibly even a competitor in one of the competitions
AGAIN just my opinion—but I enjoy training and spending times with my dogs in the process
 
I agree with the above poster wholeheartedly. This will come off as a slight but it honestly isn't; many here seem to have some type of aversion to actually training their dog to reach it's fullest potential. I can't imagine hunting with a dog that didn't retrieve every bird it finds to hand - every time. Similarly, I can't imagine hunting a dog that I couldn't handle to an unseen bird. There are times a bird falls and a dog is in heavy or tall cover and doesn't see the bird go down. I expect my dogs to be able to take direction by whistle and casting to unseen falls. I expect this because we trained extensively on these concepts.

To each their own but guys who aren't training on real world hunting skills are leaving a lot on the table, IMO.

Edit to add.... How do you judge a good bird dog? It's not up to me to judge someone else's dog. If they are happy feeding it then why should it matter to me. For me personally, I hunt to shoot/retriever birds. If I had a dog that missed birds regularly or failed to perform in the field on tasks that have been adequately taught then that dog would be moved to a new home where it was a better fit.
 
david0311 said:
JMO BUT—
I believe you above posters are missing one of the great joys of dog ownership—the training -and time spent with your dogs -watching them progress—as well as you— into becoming a first rate-hunter-companion—and possibly even a competitor in one of the competitions
AGAIN just my opinion—but I enjoy training and spending times with my dogs in the process
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Bingo!
Our season with the dogs lasts 12 months!
 
You just know when you see one. There is always one when you see it that just has it. Basically it is one that hunts all year long and is a machine. One that will follow their owner no matter what and never quit. One that can navigate any fence and figure it out. When you see a dog track a Wounded bird down over a half mile they are remembered forever but when you see them do it 100 times they are eternal.
 
A good bird dog is one that makes you smile and also brings tears of joy. Breed is irrelevant. Of course my wife thinks we have had something like 17 Goldens over our marriage,so we may be biased, but who's counting. I have one golden from field trial lines who will take a straight line as fast as he can go on a downed bird and bring it to hand unbelievably fast. I have another golden out of obedience lines who will find any downed bird and bring it back to 4 ft of me and sit it down and chase it again. She's 12 and I know I will never break her of that, of course with dead birds in hunt tests she shines. They both make me smile and I love hunting with either of them.
 
labrador said:
I agree with the above poster wholeheartedly. This will come off as a slight but it honestly isn't; many here seem to have some type of aversion to actually training their dog to reach it's fullest potential. I can't imagine hunting with a dog that didn't retrieve every bird it finds to hand - every time. Similarly, I can't imagine hunting a dog that I couldn't handle to an unseen bird. There are times a bird falls and a dog is in heavy or tall cover and doesn't see the bird go down. I expect my dogs to be able to take direction by whistle and casting to unseen falls. I expect this because we trained extensively on these concepts.

To each their own but guys who aren't training on real world hunting skills are leaving a lot on the table, IMO.

Edit to add.... How do you judge a good bird dog? It's not up to me to judge someone else's dog. If they are happy feeding it then why should it matter to me. For me personally, I hunt to shoot/retriever birds. If I had a dog that missed birds regularly or failed to perform in the field on tasks that have been adequately taught then that dog would be moved to a new home where it was a better fit.
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By & large I concur with Labrador. Everyone has their own expectations so I won't go there, I will just say that in my dog training experience you will get out of the dog the work you put into it.

What are my expectations? To earn a place on the Wrecking Crew my labs have to be finished and hunt with & for me as well as my wife. The definition of "finished" depends on who you talk to, but for me and the serious trainers I know that means the dog's OB is rock-solid, and it always pays attention to me in the field or at home. The dog has been through FF/CC so it retrieves anything I tell it to when I tell it too & delivers to hand right fetching now, is steady to wing & shot, does doubles-triples as far as it can see the falls to mark them, and does blinds on land and in the water as far as it can see my hand signals and can hear my whistle. The dog has to have the ability to find & flush upland, as well as be able to sit or lay in a field blind or in a boat for hours if need be, and do the tough water marks/blinds when we're hunting waterfowl. The dog has to work hard when we hunt and have an off switch at home. The dog has to be a good companion and get along with the other dogs in the Crew.

Yes, it takes a lot of time & work to get a dog there, the dogs I've trained from 7 weeks old take 16-20 months, 2-3 sessions a day to complete their program. And the training doesn't end when they finish, they train at least twice a week in the off season as long as they are physically capable. My old Kennel Queen Betty is coming up on 15 and loves to train...
 
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Golden Hour said:
It would appear that a good dog is what the owner defines.
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Agree completely. Who am I to tell someone else their dog is good or not and vice versa. If you are happy with your dogs and their performance that is the main thing. Yes we can go in to lots of details of this and that but the great thing is if someone has a dig we don’t think is how it should be we don’t have to hunt with it!

Having said that good obedience is extremely high on my list of importance. The best bird finder and retriever makes no difference if they are flushing birds 100 yards away and won’t listen. Had it happen one time in IA hunting with a friend. Watched this lab make an incredible 3/8 mile blind retrieve on a wounded bird that glided and then 10 minutes later watched him put up 8-10 roosters from 75 yards to 600 yards away as he just kept going down the field paying no attention to the owner yelling, whistling and using E collar. Great bird finder and even better retriever but a dog I would never hunt behind again because of the obedience issue.
 
I can only speak for myself, and my family has always had pointing dogs. Currently one setter. A couple of things come to mind when judging a good pointing bird dog. I can only speak to pointing dogs since I have never owned a flusher. Number one for me is listening skills. I want my dog to come when I call his/her name or whistle with my mouth, EVERY single time. Not a loud whistle either. That's just me, and how I call my dog. I also want my dogs completely whoa broke, sit, and heel. To me those are the basic obedience commands that any real pointing dog must have.

The dog has to hunt with you and the cover that is presented. I don't mind my dogs covering a lot of ground, I think inevitably you will find more birds. I do expect my dogs to retrieve to hand as well.

There are a lot of really good dogs out there, but few truly great ones. We have had the pleasure of owning a couple of great ones, and a lot of good ones, and a couple not so good. I think the great ones vs the good ones are separated by a few things:

1. Have a great nose. I see this time and time again with dogs that are good but not great. They really have to crowd birds before they will point them, and when I say crowd I mean be within 3 to 5 feet. I just feel the more confident a dog is in their nose they point birds 5 to 10 yards away, or even farther depending on the wind. I just feel birds get nervous when dogs crowd them.

2. The ability to use the wind. Kind of related to #1, but great dogs learn how to use the wind to their advantage.

3. The ability to cut birds off. I have seen only a handful of dogs that really know how to get in front of running birds. To me this is next level ability. My current setter can do this, but he really didn't figure this out until he was 6 years old. For me personally, I get the most joy out of watching my dogs mannerisms from the first time he gets scent until he goes on lock down. I truly enjoy the running bird encounters with multiple points, breaks, creeping etc. I love that feeling when he finally locks on the bird and you can absolutely tell by the way he's pointing. I'm smiling as I'm writing this......

Just my rambling thoughts, and I think we can all agree there is no substitution for exposing dogs to a lot of wild birds in all kinds of weather and habitat conditions. Hunting a couple of times a year or just hunting preserve birds is never going to unlock a dog's potential. When I mean exposing to a lot of birds, I'm talking hundreds and hundreds of encounters over multiple years.

I enjoy hearing all the opinions that people have regarding their hunting companions.
 
ehudgens said:
I can only speak for myself, and my family has always had pointing dogs. Currently one setter. A couple of things come to mind when judging a good pointing bird dog. I can only speak to pointing dogs since I have never owned a flusher. Number one for me is listening skills. I want my dog to come when I call his/her name or whistle with my mouth, EVERY single time. Not a loud whistle either. That's just me, and how I call my dog. I also want my dogs completely whoa broke, sit, and heel. To me those are the basic obedience commands that any real pointing dog must have.

The dog has to hunt with you and the cover that is presented. I don't mind my dogs covering a lot of ground, I think inevitably you will find more birds. I do expect my dogs to retrieve to hand as well.

There are a lot of really good dogs out there, but few truly great ones. We have had the pleasure of owning a couple of great ones, and a lot of good ones, and a couple not so good. I think the great ones vs the good ones are separated by a few things:

1. Have a great nose. I see this time and time again with dogs that are good but not great. They really have to crowd birds before they will point them, and when I say crowd I mean be within 3 to 5 feet. I just feel the more confident a dog is in their nose they point birds 5 to 10 yards away, or even farther depending on the wind. I just feel birds get nervous when dogs crowd them.

2. The ability to use the wind. Kind of related to #1, but great dogs learn how to use the wind to their advantage.

3. The ability to cut birds off. I have seen only a handful of dogs that really know how to get in front of running birds. To me this is next level ability. My current setter can do this, but he really didn't figure this out until he was 6 years old. For me personally, I get the most joy out of watching my dogs mannerisms from the first time he gets scent until he goes on lock down. I truly enjoy the running bird encounters with multiple points, breaks, creeping etc. I love that feeling when he finally locks on the bird and you can absolutely tell by the way he's pointing. I'm smiling as I'm writing this......

Just my rambling thoughts, and I think we can all agree there is no substitution for exposing dogs to a lot of wild birds in all kinds of weather and habitat conditions. Hunting a couple of times a year or just hunting preserve birds is never going to unlock a dog's potential. When I mean exposing to a lot of birds, I'm talking hundreds and hundreds of encounters over multiple years.

I enjoy hearing all the opinions that people have regarding their hunting companions.
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I agree.Must have great nose, must retrieve birds.The great ones find those wounded birds usually. I had a Male yellow lab, that rarely lost a bird.Must be able to haul a goose across the Missouri , or a pheasant. Now that's a great dog!!
 
I have only owned one dog of my own, which is the current one I have. I did the best I could training her for basic obedience and hunting. I feel like I did pretty good with my resources and time, but living in a city suburb there are certain aspects of training that I simply cannot do (like discharging a firearm or using live birds). So I paid for some professional basic training. I'm glad I did this too. I believe the most important training item is the exposure to a lot of birds. Dumb ones, preferably. That's where a game farm comes in handy.

I have hunted with friends and relatives over the years that have had their own dogs. Some of them were terrible hunting dogs and its because their owners didn't do enough training or enforcement. They borderline ruined the hunt so when I invited them again, they had two options: come with and leave your dog at home, or don't come. Its hard for someone to hear that the dog they tried to train sucks. Its like someone telling you that your kid is a failure at something. But the truth has to be revealed if you want to fix the problem. I'd rather hunt without a dog than with one that ruins the hunt.
 
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