Flushing vs pointing lab inquiry

T

tomt

Active member
My first hunting lab has reached the age where he is slowing down considerably. I acquired him from a DU acution and through sheer luck, determination and daily training sessions down by the river bottom close to home, he turned into a damn fine retriever. Now I need to start bringing along a replacement and have a bit of a decision to make..... Although pheasant hunting is an addiction, the closest wild population is 4-6 hours away, while many spots for ducks are 20 min to an hour from my garage. Hence, I get about 20 + days a year on waterfowl while only 7-8 days a year on pheasants. My current lab is a flusher, which has worked well for ducks and pheasants so far. However, also close to home is excellent spruce and blue grouse habitat which I have had mixed success with since a flushing lab and grouse found in thick trees do not result in many "makable" shots (and I will be damned if I'm leaving my dog behind when hunting birds) Here lies my dilemma, do I stick with a flushing pup which I already have experience in training and know what to expect, or do I seak out a pointing lab pup and start a whole new cycle of
trail and error? The vast majority of my days a field are spent in a blind, so a true pointing breed is not the direction I want to go. However, I fantasize about a pointing lab every time my current hunting companion flushes a grouse on the wrong side of two old growth spruce trees. What do those of you who have experienced the difference between a flushing and pointing lab think? how much more difficult or expensive ( I.e more live Birds to practice with???) is getting and keeping a pointing dog "up to form"? I love to hear from y'all who have had similar experiences. Thx
 
Sounds like you have a pretty good plan there.

I duck hunt with a guy that has a fancy pointing lab. It's a for-real duck dog no question. It upland hunts more like a flusher, in terms of range and style, but it points for a few seconds before it flushes the bird. He uses it almost exactly like you described, except no grouse in SE Kansas... It's a great hunting dog for his purposes. Lives in his house and sleeps in his bed too.
 
I didn't know labs pointed! Huh.
:)
I kid.

My experience is largely limited to pointing dogs, but I believe we have had this conversation before, but I can't remember for sure.

Anyways, I think for the basic upland hunter, it would be easier to train a flushing dog then a pointing dog.
Flushing dogs, you need a dog that quarters, stays in gun range? Flushes birds for the gun, right? Is much of that largely obedience?
Training a pointing dog is a whole nother ball game.

Just my opinion.
 
You could try a breed that is known to be versatile in different hunting scenarios. Something like a Wirehaired Pointing Griffon or a Pudelpointer. Both known for being great upland hunting dogs but also known for duck hunting.
 
Pointing labs do require alot more bird work for the pointing part. I am sold on them, I have flushers too and love to hunt with them but when they get on a scent of a bird ,I make sure i have my tennys on,,,,:D
 
There's every possibility that I just haven't been fortunate enough to see a good one yet and they're not real common where I live, but the three pointing Labs I've been afield with were not impressive. None worked with much intensity and their "point" was more of a brief "pause." I know lots of people are thrilled with those dogs, but they're just not my cup of tea.

If I did three times as much duck hunting as upland, I'd go with a traditional Lab from high-quality breeding. They can still get the job done in the uplands, especially on heavy-cover pheasants that you may never see with a pointing dog.

I'd look for a breeding of two lean, high-energy, high-stamina dogs that have proven to excel on solid ground. Sometimes that takes quite a bit of homework and may require a wait.

No matter what, there are still going to be plenty of wild birds that get up in the wrong place from the shooter's perspective.
 
keskam - nice video! Good choice in music as well. I got a new pup last spring and since my emphasis has changed to upland, I went with a pointing lab. Here is a shot of my new pup on point.

e9388e6e205009de0524c63648856273.jpg
 
Tom,

Don't give in to the darkside:D. I don't know if your current dog is a hard flusher or not, but if he is you will probably miss it. I Know I would. pointing labs are a by product of dogs with a poor flush. Some guys still have dogs that will flush hard after pointing, but many don't. I have no experience hunting with one in the blind, but one could only guess the same timidness could be present there. I know I love watching a hard charger pushing birds out of cover all day or hitting the water the way mine does. I tend to agree with Ditchparrot, I prefer a lean hard charger. I know some have commented that pointers are more work to train than flushers. Maybe it's because they are not as smart:D....... The dogs I mean. Not the owners:D
 
Last edited:
All the pointing labs I've seen "point" there birds very close and I've often wondered how this would work on wild bids. Maybe some dumb early season grouse may be pointed in this fashion but roosters and quail Idk. Then again all the pointing labs I've seen have been preserve queens. I extended the offer to hunt quail with one guy who's pointy lab often beats my springers in NAGDA competition but have never been taken up on it. I think his dog only hunts planted chukar.
 
carptom1 said:
I don't know if your current dog is a hard flusher or not, but if he is you will probably miss it.
Click to expand...

In terms of time on the ground, I'm about 60/40 in favor of my pointing dogs nowadays, partly because my hard-flushing Lab will be 12 next June and has slowed a bit.

Actually, his intent is not to flush birds – it's to kill them before they take flight. I know this because I've seen what happens when one doesn't get up in time. He doesn't nail many wild ones, naturally, but his efforts produce the desired effect. Watching him thrash nasty vegetation isn't quite as aesthetically pleasing as seeing one of my white ones locked up solid, but it's close. Picturing him "on point" is just too ridiculous to imagine, like seeing Dick Butkus in a ballet leotard or something.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with pointing Labs – they obviously get the job done for a lot of people. The problem is with me: It's a concept that I just can't get a grip on at this juncture. I'm not totally closed-minded on the topic, though, and my view could change through different experiences than the ones I've had.
 
Last edited:
Oops, I'm about to disagree with Carptom again... Sorry Carptom.:eek:

That pointing lab my friend owns is anything but timid. A couple weeks ago we were setting up decoys on a pond and the lab takes off down the bank after a skunk. As he's getting close to it, the owner starts hitting the juice on the e-collar and hollering NO NO NO... But by this time, the dog is so close that it has gone completely "deaf". At the same time, the skunk starts running away from the dog while shooting it in the face with skunk juice. So, in order to "make game", this dog is shrugging off maximum electricity on the collar and running through clouds of skunk juice... I could literally see the dog shuddering from the electricity while gaining ground on the skunk.:eek: A timid dog would have given up the chase, but I would say ol' skunkface was pretty bold.

After getting completely covered in funk, the dog was kept downwind of us for the duration of the hunt. But he still enthusiastically retrieved every duck and goose that was shot, with a couple long swims and multiple retrieves.

So anyway, there's my impression of pointing labs. Very bold and aggressive skunk hunters...:laugh: and pretty decent at other stuff too.:thumbsup:
 
jsdriggs said:
Yeah, mine sleeps in my bed too. And the f#^&(r pissed in it last night.

My labs are from a "pointing" kennel. Duck hunting is a part of their life too, just like Toad describes.
Click to expand...

Jsdriggs,
When Training your pointing labs (not initially, but to keep things fresh during off season or to form before season begins) do you use dead birds at all or do you have to always use live birds to reinforce the point. I suppose that my confusion lies in that I don't quite understand how a p.lab will understand the difference between a bird it should point and a bird (wounded or dead), that it needs to retrieve. Do they associate the gun going off with the need to retrieve? What about blind retrieves?

although I never had the pleasure of my lab wetting my bed, I did end up late to work three days ago after I got up and noticed crap piled up in front of my front door (and smeared in a line through the living room,,thank goodness for tile)..... That hasn't
happened in about 9 years... Couldn't hear his whining, happened to be the one night in a long time I took a sleeping aid..... Oops.. that'll learn me :)
 
Last edited:
keskam said:
Pointing labs do require alot more bird work for the pointing part. I am sold on them, I have flushers too and love to hunt with them but when they get on a scent of a bird ,I make sure i have my tennys on,,,,:D
Click to expand...

Keskam...Since you have both flusher and pointing labs, do you differentiate between them at the kennel door when hunting upland verses waterfowl? (cool video).
 
tomt said:
Keskam...Since you have both flusher and pointing labs, do you differentiate between them at the kennel door when hunting upland verses waterfowl? (cool video).
Click to expand...

Not at all I would have to say my Pointing labs are better with waterfowl then the flushers,

It really comes down to what breeding you pick! Make sure that both parents are (real) hunting dogs and actually do hunt (wild) birds and goose and duck hunt, I say this as some kennels do just put there dogs on planted birds and not the real thing,

Also if you do a few things with your dog when they are young as 10 to 13 weeks old you will imprint your pup into the bird world and create a bird hunting fool, (but most dont do this except pointer guys, alot of the lab guys dont do live upland work until later and it shows in there dogs, as you here on here about timid and dogs that just walk in front of there owners is from lack of training at a early age IMO, AND WAY TO MUCH CONTROL. They dont let the dog work because they want him in that 20 to 30 yard range , so what does the dog do? stays right in front of them were it is (safe).....

A taste of live birds is super important at a early age,(quail or chukar)
lots of walks at a early age, in cover that the pup can handle,
10 to 13 weeks upland work every 3 to 6 days
Upland work every couple of weeks until 6 months old,and shot over at about 4 to 5 months
You will create a bird workin fool who will work fields like they are suppose to be worked, and not just hunt in front of you and stumble on a bird, the dog should be seeking scent.

We took a Chocolate female who was timid at a young age and did these things and she is a crazy bird dog now and hunts with very high energy now. and i mean high, I will be Breeding to her in a couple years...


As far as PLs pointing to close, that is because when training and the dogs will seek the strongest scent until the point occurs, this can be fixed with pheasants or pigeons that will not let the dog pressure them and fly aways,, quaill and chukar are not good for this, do NOT put these birds to sleep! Just put down lite or use a higgins release! Or Wild birds work the best!!

http://youtu.be/c6HsxcFs4w0

Here is Snake Jake on Pheasants. and a 300 yard retrieve.

Remember this is My Opinion with training a few dogs and what i have seen.

Kevin
 
Last edited:
Keskam,
Nice video. Did you train your dog to sit on flush? Is that something you want?


Your dog looks very nice.
I saw you have that Higgins Releaser. Do you like it? I love mine, and it has proven to be a valuable tool for my training methods. I like to use it when my dogs have graduated past the launchers, but aren't ready for loose dizzied birds yet. It's great.
 
ditchparrot19 said:
In terms of time on the ground, I'm about 60/40 in favor of my pointing dogs nowadays, partly because my hard-flushing Lab will be 12 next June and has slowed a bit.

Actually, his intent is not to flush birds – it's to kill them before they take flight. I know this because I've seen what happens when one doesn't get up in time. He doesn't nail many wild ones, naturally, but his efforts produce the desired effect. Watching him thrash nasty vegetation isn't quite as aesthetically pleasing as seeing one of my white ones locked up solid, but it's close. Picturing him "on point" is just too ridiculous to imagine, like seeing Dick Butkus in a ballet leotard or something.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with pointing Labs – they obviously get the job done for a lot of people. The problem is with me: It's a concept that I just can't get a grip on at this juncture. I'm not totally closed-minded on the topic, though, and my view could change through different experiences than the ones I've had.
Click to expand...

Good to see you over here John.
 
There is nothing "timid" about my PL. There was no special training. I used the same methods of training as a flushing guy would. Most of the birds i shoot are flushed. I would say 25% of the birds are pointed and the point has been as long as 1 min and sometimes as short as 2 seconds. I live in mn and we duck hunt him quite often. He is very hard charging, busts through ice and cattails and retrieves anything. I have never seen a timid one. He did point a woundy this year, but with a simple "dead" command retrieved the bird to hand. I think alot of traditional lab guys dont like the breed because the dog does things there's doesnt. But like everything doing your homework and choosing the right breeder is more than half the battle. I believe Trieven's twist and shout was a pointing lab, and he was believed to be one of the best. Im sure timid was used to describe him.
 
V-John said:
Good to see you over here John.
Click to expand...

Thanks, same to you. I'd picked up tidbits of info from here for years and felt it was high time I attempted to contribute something, at least. Having a lot of fun so far. I'd gotten pretty stale at the other place and it seemed like it'd been quite awhile since I'd posted anything productive.

Really hope you get some favorable weather soon.
 
ditchparrot19 said:
Thanks, same to you. I'd picked up tidbits of info from here for years and felt it was high time I attempted to contribute something, at least. Having a lot of fun so far. I'd gotten pretty stale at the other place and it seemed like it'd been quite awhile since I'd posted anything productive.

Really hope you get some favorable weather soon.
Click to expand...

I agree on all counts.
We are having a tough year, that's for sure. A mutual Farmer friend is down here and is struggling as are the rest of us.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top