An indicator of NE hunting pressure

[calamari]

I'm getting my stuff together to go hunting and fishing again in MT. I looked through my past hunt's descriptions and found a good indicator of how quickly things have changed in the NE corner of the state.
In 2013 I hunted very small and relatively remote BMAs near the NoDak border. One was only about 900 acres total with limited pheasant cover. Because very few people hunted it I found pheasants and had it pretty much to myself in 2013 even though I only hunted it a couple of times to spread my impact out over a number of BMAs.
In 2014 I was able to see how many people hunted that BMA and by the 5th day of the season 120 hunters had hunted that one 900 acre BMA. I passed numbers of caravans of vehicles with dog trailers in tow out in that part of the state that had as many as 16 dogs per trailer going 60 mph on the dirt roads. SLOW DOWN when you pass people you come across out there so you don't break their windshields with flying rocks!
Last year I didn't hunt that BMA because when I got there a group of 4 hunters was just leaving with 4 dogs and another group of 6 had just arrived with a trailer full of dogs and were signing in. Actually, although I signed in at every BMA box where I used to hunt so the owner can get paid for his generosity, I didn't hunt a single BMA in that part of the state. It's become too much like hunting the wildlife areas here in California for my taste. Fishing is the new hunting for me back there.

 

[Crossing shot]

I get irritated when I am almost to a remote WIHA and a truck appears behind me trying to pass on a gravel road.

 

[KSBrittman]

I'm getting my stuff together to go hunting and fishing again in MT. I looked through my past hunt's descriptions and found a good indicator of how quickly things have changed in the NE corner of the state.
In 2013 I hunted very small and relatively remote BMAs near the NoDak border. One was only about 900 acres total with limited pheasant cover. Because very few people hunted it I found pheasants and had it pretty much to myself in 2013 even though I only hunted it a couple of times to spread my impact out over a number of BMAs.
In 2014 I was able to see how many people hunted that BMA and by the 5th day of the season 120 hunters had hunted that one 900 acre BMA. I passed numbers of caravans of vehicles with dog trailers in tow out in that part of the state that had as many as 16 dogs per trailer going 60 mph on the dirt roads. SLOW DOWN when you pass people you come across out there so you don't break their windshields with flying rocks!
Last year I didn't hunt that BMA because when I got there a group of 4 hunters was just leaving with 4 dogs and another group of 6 had just arrived with a trailer full of dogs and were signing in. Actually, although I signed in at every BMA box where I used to hunt so the owner can get paid for his generosity, I didn't hunt a single BMA in that part of the state. It's become too much like hunting the wildlife areas here in California for my taste. Fishing is the new hunting for me back there.

Things must have really changed I hunted the similar ground in the NE part of MT in 08 ran into one other hunting group while in the felid . Sounds like that block of land really got hit hard .

 

[small munsterlander owner]

Last few years pheasants forever has put a big bullseye on Montana for a remote place to get a mixed bag pheasant hunt last season especially new a guy who used to hunt MT pheasants said it was nuts the hunting pressure out in middle of no whear MT he hunted MT To get away from crowds ...

 

[calamari]

Things must have really changed I hunted the similar ground in the NE part of MT in 08 ran into one other hunting group while in the felid . Sounds like that block of land really got hit hard .

I started hunting that whole corner of the state in 05 and it was as you describe in my experience too.
Things have really changed in the past 3 years with articles being written about how wonderful it is as small munsterlander owner points out. It's gone, in my view, from "how wonderful it is" to "how wonderful it was."
It seems like there's been a change in attitude among the hunters I've seen where because they have to drive so far to get there they need to run as fast as they can with as many dogs as they can carry through as much of the country as they can get to in order to get their money's worth for the trip's cost. I think I may be getting cranky in my dotage but I've always found it more enjoyable looking around, going slowly and appreciating the country and the pursuit rather than getting in a line and yelling at your dogs and each other as you march across the prairie with your shotgun at port arms. There's a lot more of those kinds of hunters than there are single guys with one dog like me so I must be wrongheaded.

 

[Montana Husker]

You point out a major flaw in areas like BM open to hunting. Society has become way to mobile. A person can get on a plane in either coast and be in pheasant country that afternoon. I have watched the same piece of BM get hammered everyday for a months time, no wonder some people gripe about not seeing birds on BM. Some type of time constraints should be placed on BM, I prefer the state make all areas require written access instead of just pulling up and signing a card at box. Allow the landowner to limit the number of days people are hunting a particular piece of land, there are quite a few like that for big game hunting.

 

[calamari]

A person can get on a plane in either coast and be in pheasant country that afternoon.

I'm not sure that guys who fly into the state to hunt are the problem. They don't bring 4 other guys and a ton of dogs with them. The ones who fly in tend to hunt with an outfitter who has private property connections. It's the out of state guys who drive there and conduct a repetitive straining of the same fields over and over. There is no way they can comply with the possession limit unless they are poor hunters, feed the birds to their dogs or just throw them away. When you stay for a month and hunt every day you pretty quickly get sick of eating Sharptails and pheasants.
There was a guy who stayed in a motel in a small NE town who hunted by himself and had 16 dogs. He had a 1 ton chassis with the boxes built in and had a water trailer with a 250 gallon tank on it for dog water. He hunted from the first of Sept until it stormed and when I stayed in the same motel he did I found he left bags of birds in the cleaning room freezer when he went home. It's hard not to get disgusted with some of your fellow hunters.

 

[Montana Husker]

I'm not sure that guys who fly into the state to hunt are the problem. They don't bring 4 other guys and a ton of dogs with them. The ones who fly in tend to hunt with an outfitter who has private property connections. It's the out of state guys who drive there and conduct a repetitive straining of the same fields over and over. There is no way they can comply with the possession limit unless they are poor hunters, feed the birds to their dogs or just throw them away. When you stay for a month and hunt every day you pretty quickly get sick of eating Sharptails and pheasants.
There was a guy who stayed in a motel in a small NE town who hunted by himself and had 16 dogs. He had a 1 ton chassis with the boxes built in and had a water trailer with a 250 gallon tank on it for dog water. He hunted from the first of Sept until it stormed and when I stayed in the same motel he did I found he left bags of birds in the cleaning room freezer when he went home. It's hard not to get disgusted with some of your fellow hunters.

That was an example of how easy it is to get somewhere. But it all adds up whether it is you driving from Cali or some guy flying in, not much difference in my book. Most out of state folks I have spoken to, and even seen on this board, judge a hunt by number of birds killed, maybe it is their immaturity as a hunter or their upbringing, but it is a shame.

 

[small munsterlander owner]

You locals or MT vets with issues hunting pressure may have a idea but are the land owners running these properties or opening these lands to the public have the same issues??? Do many of these block management areas get in enrolled after tons of man hours = $$$ for the rancher? Do the ranchers un enroll them due to heavy hunt pressure??? SD SW ND MN KS 1st 2-3wks get hammered maybe not 16 guys & dogs daily for a wk but if u hunt public u gotta deal with these issues...

Pack a trash bag hunt new spots or state avoid ez hotels & ez access have good dog work ur ass off don't whine clean ur birds eat ur birds or don't shoot... Basicly if u know wear all these guys hammer don't hunt it write it off...

I hunted MT in heart if the NE MT hi line pheasant range for grouse seen 1 other hunter in 6.5 days was not MT plates no locals we talked with hunted birds all had elk deer even waterfowl on there minds I think if we relied on MT locals to bring $$$ into the block management areas wear pheasant is the main game the program would not get much use ... Talked with a biologist picking up BMA cards either for owner or state was 3rd WK of season late sept he said our cards were the only he picked up in wks said nobody been out around here locals go big I assume he meant big game...

I'm as anal as anybody over trash & rude hunters & areas over hunted I'm all for peaceful hunts & a few birds don't like army march or block & post hunts I like dog work I can find birds my self dog makes the hunt not just a SHOOT hurry up next spot repeat..

These hunters hole lives are rush rush rush smash as much into a day a trip a WK as they can they drive rude & litter & no wonder they do it wear ever they go hunt as well it sucks I agree...

Does this hunter activity continue all season if all season I'd go nuts also lol

 

[Goosemaster]

I'm not sure that guys who fly into the state to hunt are the problem. They don't bring 4 other guys and a ton of dogs with them. The ones who fly in tend to hunt with an outfitter who has private property connections. It's the out of state guys who drive there and conduct a repetitive straining of the same fields over and over. There is no way they can comply with the possession limit unless they are poor hunters, feed the birds to their dogs or just throw them away. When you stay for a month and hunt every day you pretty quickly get sick of eating Sharptails and pheasants.
There was a guy who stayed in a motel in a small NE town who hunted by himself and had 16 dogs. He had a 1 ton chassis with the boxes built in and had a water trailer with a 250 gallon tank on it for dog water. He hunted from the first of Sept until it stormed and when I stayed in the same motel he did I found he left bags of birds in the cleaning room freezer when he went home. It's hard not to get disgusted with some of your fellow hunters.

big time low baggers. Meat hunters are lowbaggers, in general.

 

[Goosemaster]

You locals or MT vets with issues hunting pressure may have a idea but are the land owners running these properties or opening these lands to the public have the same issues??? Do many of these block management areas get in enrolled after tons of man hours = $$$ for the rancher? Do the ranchers un enroll them due to heavy hunt pressure??? SD SW ND MN KS 1st 2-3wks get hammered maybe not 16 guys & dogs daily for a wk but if u hunt public u gotta deal with these issues...

Pack a trash bag hunt new spots or state avoid ez hotels & ez access have good dog work ur ass off don't whine clean ur birds eat ur birds or don't shoot... Basicly if u know wear all these guys hammer don't hunt it write it off...

I hunted MT in heart if the NE MT hi line pheasant range for grouse seen 1 other hunter in 6.5 days was not MT plates no locals we talked with hunted birds all had elk deer even waterfowl on there minds I think if we relied on MT locals to bring $$$ into the block management areas wear pheasant is the main game the program would not get much use ... Talked with a biologist picking up BMA cards either for owner or state was 3rd WK of season late sept he said our cards were the only he picked up in wks said nobody been out around here locals go big I assume he meant big game...

I'm as anal as anybody over trash & rude hunters & areas over hunted I'm all for peaceful hunts & a few birds don't like army march or block & post hunts I like dog work I can find birds my self dog makes the hunt not just a SHOOT hurry up next spot repeat..

These hunters hole lives are rush rush rush smash as much into a day a trip a WK as they can they drive rude & litter & no wonder they do it wear ever they go hunt as well it sucks I agree...

Does this hunter activity continue all season if all season I'd go nuts also lol

My opinion of bma hunting I'd this. Some are good, but you really have to work. Some , totally suck, and are not worth the time. Be satisfied with the expirience, and don't wory about bag numbers, then you will enjoy bma's.

 

[berettadouble]

big time low baggers. Meat hunters are lowbaggers, in general.

Could you explain that statement?

 

[calamari]

My opinion of bma hunting I'd this. Some are good, but you really have to work. Some , totally suck, and are not worth the time. Be satisfied with the expirience, and don't wory about bag numbers, then you will enjoy bma's.

My point in the original post was that BMAs in the NE part of the state get pounded until the birds on the area are reduced to a level where the BMA becomes mediocre at best and worthless all too often. Everybody hunts in groups with packs of dogs and they return to the same place if they're successful until it's shot off. It may sound like bragging but it's just being considerate and taking a longer view when I only shoot one bird at any particular spot, only hunt for an hour at the most and then move on.
My dog is going blind so I drove 1,400 miles one way this year and spent 15 minutes hunting to find one bird for her that I shot. She eventually found it because her sight is very poor now and it was down wind. I packed up and drove 1,400 miles home. I don't need a dog to hunt pheasants because I hunted by myself for 50 years. I hunted and didn't engage in drives with other hunters and only shot more birds with a dog in two of the 9 years Morgan hunted with me. I haven't come across a real pheasant hunter in almost 10 years.
All of you who think you are great hunters leave your dog(s) and friends at home and hunt by yourself. It takes skill to be a hunter and not just a shooter/chauffeur. Anyone who says it just isn't fun w/o a dog is fine feeling that way because their personal image is often wound up in that illusion. Just don't call yourself a great hunter because you bag a bunch of birds with 6 dogs.
I won't hunt pheasants anymore because it would feel like I'm being disrespectful to Morgan to go when she can't. My trips to Montana are over.
Bitch me out if you want. Goodbye.

 

[berettadouble]

My point in the original post was that BMAs in the NE part of the state get pounded until the birds on the area are reduced to a level where the BMA becomes mediocre at best and worthless all too often. Everybody hunts in groups with packs of dogs and they return to the same place if they're successful until it's shot off. It may sound like bragging but it's just being considerate and taking a longer view when I only shoot one bird at any particular spot, only hunt for an hour at the most and then move on.
My dog is going blind so I drove 1,400 miles one way this year and spent 15 minutes hunting to find one bird for her that I shot. She eventually found it because her sight is very poor now and it was down wind. I packed up and drove 1,400 miles home. I don't need a dog to hunt pheasants because I hunted by myself for 50 years. I hunted and didn't engage in drives with other hunters and only shot more birds with a dog in two of the 9 years Morgan hunted with me. I haven't come across a real pheasant hunter in almost 10 years.
All of you who think you are great hunters leave your dog(s) and friends at home and hunt by yourself. It takes skill to be a hunter and not just a shooter/chauffeur. Anyone who says it just isn't fun w/o a dog is fine feeling that way because their personal image is often wound up in that illusion. Just don't call yourself a great hunter because you bag a bunch of birds with 6 dogs.
I won't hunt pheasants anymore because it would feel like I'm being disrespectful to Morgan to go when she can't. My trips to Montana are over.
Bitch me out if you want. Goodbye.

Wow, that was pretty cranky. I actually just wanted to know what the definition of "Meat hunters" was ,especially as they are "low baggers".

I hate to tell you this Calamari- but you're experience with BMAs is pretty much like that EVERYWHERE there is public land. To sum you're statements up:

1- hunting with dogs isn't real hunting.
2- unless you're hunting with your dog, because...
3- you're the only "real hunter" you know.

With all due respect sir- it sounds like you're bitterly mourning your dogs last days, and I understand that. I was in that situation and it made me a real sour person personally. If this is you- I think you need a pup. I personally think the adult dogs rests easier knowing the torch is passing and a puppy does a soul good.

 

[calamari]

Wow, that was pretty cranky. I actually just wanted to know what the definition of "Meat hunters" was ,especially as they are "low baggers".

Actually, I didn't understand that either.

I hate to tell you this Calamari- but you're experience with BMAs is pretty much like that EVERYWHERE there is public land.

Actually, that isn't my experience in Montana except up in that NE section of the state. There is a lot of public land I have hunted in the state and never saw anybody else.

To sum you're statements up:
1- hunting with dogs isn't real hunting.

You missed the point. It very much is hunting...for the dog. Walking or running behind a dog isn't anymore like hunting than saying you're a hunter when you hire a guide who points out the animal so you can shoot it. Shooting? yes. Hunting ? no.

- unless you're hunting with your dog, because...

I don't understand what you're saying here. If it's that I can't talk this way because i hunted with a dog then I take your point. She is the first dog I can call mine in 50 years and my second hunting dog since I was 12 years old. I didn't want the dog but "SHE" felt I needed one as a companion or in case I fell down a well or something. Morgan could go get help was her thinking. It's sometimes best not to argue.

- you're the only "real hunter" you know.

Again, only seems to be true about the guys i come across now. In the not so distant past I knew other hunters who took the time and made the effort to learn the quarry's behaviors and could find and shoot them w/o a dog. I've never come across anybody able to do that in NE Montana. For example, any flocking bird can be called. How many "hunters" call pheasants? A skill that is not evident in Montana.

all due respect sir- it sounds like you're bitterly mourning your dogs last days, and I understand that. I was in that situation and it made me a real sour person personally. If this is you- I think you need a pup. I personally think the adult dogs rests easier knowing the torch is passing and a puppy does a soul good.

I appreciate the kindness behind your suggestion and thank you for it. Yes I was venting a little bit but Morgan will be around hopefully for a long time and is a constant source of fun for me. She's just not able to hunt anymore. I play golf so I'm OK with playing it as it lays. I don't dwell on what could be instead of what is.
Try hunting w/o your dog sometime and you'll learn you're not as good as you may think. Are you really the hunter if you only get birds when the dog finds them for you? This is intended to make people think about the subject and not to overly damage or attack self images.

 

[Montana Husker]

I too am sorry you lost your pup, I dealt with the tragic loss of my two pups and age 4 and 7 in a tragic accident in which they both died. I will always remember them, but have moved on with two new pups in the last year.
Now, on hunting without a dog, I WILL NOT DO IT. There are few things in life like watching a bird dog you have spent time with and trained yourself, you become a team, and watching a good dog is like art in motion, can not imagine hunting birds with out it. I believe you owe it to the birds also, everyone cripples birds at some point, if you have a good dog, that is a huge plus.
As for public lands up here in NE Montana, like I said earlier in thread, people are way to mobile, and like you said, if someone has success on public land, they will be back again and again, it is stupid, I do not hunt public land for birds, been very fortunate in that, feel sorry for those that do, farmers and ranchers for the most part are good steward of the land, plus they control access, which is a huge asset to the wildlife. There are folks that think hunting public land makes them a better hunter, BS, it just means they haven't taken the time to build trust and friendships with landowners. Yeah, it is hard to do when your a days drive from someone and only visit a week a year, that's why I would recommend spending time in the summer in an area you want to hunt, ask a farmer if he could use some help, hell, if your a tradesman, tell them you have a skill to offer. There are a lot of ways to get to know folks in rural areas, I will let people figure that out on their own.

 

[Jakeismydog2]

I haven't come across a real pheasant hunter in almost 10 years.
All of you who think you are great hunters leave your dog(s) and friends at home and hunt by yourself. It takes skill to be a hunter and not just a shooter/chauffeur. Anyone who says it just isn't fun w/o a dog is fine feeling that way because their personal image is often wound up in that illusion.

Wow! There are many many highly inflammatory things said on UPH. That may be the most inflammatory post I have read on this site.

You do realize that like 90% of the members on here have dogs and enjoy hunting with them, that's mostly why people are members of this board.

Since I have never really seen pheasant hunting without a dog maybe you could enlighten me about some of the methods? Calling? Pass shooting? Other methods?

 

[bobman]

Hunters that hunt pheasants without a dog will leave lots of wasted cripples in the field. A dog is the very best conservation asset a responsible sportsman can have.

No one can find crippled pheasants in cover without one.

 

[PheasantWhisperer]

My point in the original post was that BMAs in the NE part of the state get pounded until the birds on the area are reduced to a level where the BMA becomes mediocre at best and worthless all too often. Everybody hunts in groups with packs of dogs and they return to the same place if they're successful until it's shot off. It may sound like bragging but it's just being considerate and taking a longer view when I only shoot one bird at any particular spot, only hunt for an hour at the most and then move on.
My dog is going blind so I drove 1,400 miles one way this year and spent 15 minutes hunting to find one bird for her that I shot. She eventually found it because her sight is very poor now and it was down wind. I packed up and drove 1,400 miles home. I don't need a dog to hunt pheasants because I hunted by myself for 50 years. I hunted and didn't engage in drives with other hunters and only shot more birds with a dog in two of the 9 years Morgan hunted with me. I haven't come across a real pheasant hunter in almost 10 years.
All of you who think you are great hunters leave your dog(s) and friends at home and hunt by yourself. It takes skill to be a hunter and not just a shooter/chauffeur. Anyone who says it just isn't fun w/o a dog is fine feeling that way because their personal image is often wound up in that illusion. Just don't call yourself a great hunter because you bag a bunch of birds with 6 dogs.
I won't hunt pheasants anymore because it would feel like I'm being disrespectful to Morgan to go when she can't. My trips to Montana are over.
Bitch me out if you want. Goodbye.

Yeah that was confusing. Hunting with a dog is bad? But you can drive 1400 miles shoot one just for the dog to find then drive back? I don't know if a pup is on the menu for you or a psychiatrist...I for one go for the dog work as well. Anyone can jump out of a truck by themselves when they see a pheasant and shoot it out of a ditch. Then let there blind dog out to retrieve it out of the middle of the road. Blind squirrels find acorns...As for the 2800 miles for one pheasant. Some people just enjoy more window time than hunting and scenery time. But driving that far for one pheasant doesn't make you a hunter either. It just means it took 1400 miles to see one from your windshield that you could jump out and shoot. Hunters like that aren't real either. And when you play golf, my guess is that you ride in a cart since you like driving so much. Some would say "real" golfers walk the course. Hopefully this post doesn't discourage the younger hunters on the site. Dogs are good. They will take a bullet for you and be a hunting buddy to you even when no other humans are able to go. It's team work, it is HUNTING, and it's a beautiful thing!!

 

[calamari]

But you can drive 1400 miles shoot one just for the dog to find then drive back? I don't know if a pup is on the menu for you or a psychiatrist.

No I didn't road hunt until I found a bird and jump out of my truck to shoot it. I drove that far because she deserved one last hunt in a place where she had great times in over the years. I left because her eyesight was so bad she was going to injure herself if I continued.
Here's a long story. If anyone wants to discuss how to hunt pheasants w/o a dog, feel free to PM me. I'll check it occasionally and reply.

You decide to go after pheasants. Although there are some guys who hunt by themselves you've never learned how to do it and have always hunted with a guide. You get a local guide who has been doing that his whole life and comes from a family whose members, both men and women, have been guiding for birds for generations. That's all they do for a living.
You pick your guide up who answers to "Buck" for some reason, and you go out to a place you've heard had pheasants. Buck will hunt anyplace you choose but only places you choose. He's not particular because he can find pheasants anyplace they exist.
You get there and Buck sits on a rock while you get your gun and vest on. When you're ready Buck goes out in the field and begins to look for birds using a method known only to him. Suddenly he stops, looks down at a tub sized patch of grass, puts his left hand on his hip, extends his right arm and points with his index finger at the grass patch and looks at you. You walk up to where he's pointing and a rooster jumps up that you shoot. Buck goes and picks the bird up, comes back and hands it to you and then starts looking for another bird.
The next time you go you hire two of Buck's brothers, "Brownie" and "Duke" so that there are now three guides in the field. When one points at a bird the other two point at him with their index fingers. You shoot limits of birds everyday you hunt.
My question is who is the hunter in the story and who is the shooter/chauffeur? You can't find a bird by yourself and Buck and his brothers can't shoot or drive.
Dogs either hunt or they don't hunt. The training you give them is to modify their hunting to benefit you. You don't teach a dog a thing about how to hunt.
Why do I raise this as an issue? Because the NE part of Montana has become increasingly overrun in the 10 years I've hunted there by ever larger groups of hunters in caravans of vehicles towing dog trailers full of dogs. It's become all about "the score" and not about the experience or the skill. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed watching Morgan hunt and friends dogs too. But I never pounded places like is now happening in an industrial fashion in that part of the state. I'm not suggesting everybody sell their guns and dogs and start trying to get pheasants by putting salt on their tails. Just hunt w/o a dog enough to learn to hunt so you can have a broader experience and skill set. It's like a lot of things. It's not fun because it's easy to hunt without a dog. It's fun because it's hard.
I've kept records over some of the years about my hunting and fishing trips. I've been hunting 64 years. Without a dog I averaged a 10% bird loss for all hunting, both upland and water fowl. With Morgan for the first 5 years of my time with her I averaged 10% too. The last 4 years I haven't lost a bird but because of better shooting and Golden BBs not because of her. Flushing pheasants aren't that hard to shoot if you once get the program figured out and have the birds in effective range.
Yes the crowds drop off once NoDak opens and the weather turns but by then a lot of BMAs have been shot off from this kind of pressure.
I'm trying to encourage those who hunt there to find enjoyment in learning the skills to actually be a hunter and not focus on "The Money Shot.". These skills are much easier to learn where there are a lot of birds like there are in Montana thanks to natural production and the FWPs bird planting program.
Learn to hunt first before you call yourself a hunter.